Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

I am posting a link to me doing the first set of the traditional form any advice would be much appreciated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31E94dP1jBo

Hi Taichikid,
In my opinion, your style is more like Chen Mang Ching´s than Yang Family Style, with bigger structure, armpits clear, constant speed, etc.

Rubén

Yang, Jiann-Hour (1839-1917)
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Yang, Cheng-Fuu (1883-1936)
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Chan, Wai-Ming (1881-1958)
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Leung, King-Yu (1907-2003)
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Alwin Sit Sun Leung (1948- )

Lineage!

I wouldnt even say im remotely close to the way im supposed to be preforming I was just wondering if anyone had any suggestinos because i havent had the chance to be corrected by my teacher in a while, and I would like to debate upon the differences in what is taught by the yang family association

Greetings Taichikid,

Congratulations for the courage to post your form. It looks very nicely performed, very smooth, and quite stable. You seem to have nice concentration and good waist movement. It is clearly Yang Style, but I agree with Rubén that it is quite different in its details from the current Yang Family Style. This difference does not make it wrong, but does make it quite difficult to offer any advice from our perspective.

For instance, the current Yang Family Style, does not teach the weight distribution that you are using and does not allow the front knee to go beyond the toes of the front foot in a bow stance.

If you really want feedback, I might have a few questions first.

Do you consider the Preparation Posture to be a distinct posture equal to the others?

Do you focus on a particular Jin point most of the time? There are a few places when I am not clear about where you are focusing the power.

When your hands are in close and the Jin point is close to your body, are you supposed to look closely at it? Can you tilt your head to do so?

Your hands are curved in the withdrawal before the final push. Is this unintentional, or does it have an application?

I would like to debate upon the differences in what is taught by the yang family association

I am not sure there is anything to debate, but would welcome a discussion. I think we focus on a number of things in our form training that are different from what your form shows. For instance, we weight the feet differently, step differently, shift weight differently, use the back differently in some places, change the hands less, lift the hands less, and other small differences. Again, I do not see a right and wrong, but a different emphasis. There is nothing that I see that we never do, we just put a different emphasis on some principles in the hand form. If there is anything in particular you would like to discuss, let me know.

Take care,
Audi

Do you consider the Preparation Posture to be a distinct posture equal to the others? - My teach teaches the importance of the tai chi form remaining unchanged because tai chi is like a pill, with a specific set of ingredients and if you take one or two out it doesn't become tai chi anymore then it is something else, I adopt this belief and also relate it that every posture has its purpose its point etc, so every posture while they may do different things has its purpose and is equally important. Unfortunately though I still have not mastered the ability to preform every posture correctly and make little mistakes.

Do you focus on a particular Jin point most of the time? There are a few places when I am not clear about where you are focusing the power? I am not allowed to focus on specific points yet, my sifu is very particular in making sure I understand the ideas of lead every movement from the waist and having the center clear, then he will allow me to focus my intention I know its very evident in my form where the intention is being focused.

When your hands are in close and the Jin point is close to your body, are you supposed to look closely at it? Can you tilt your head to do so? I asked about this before because he said you were never supposed to look down, unless it was intentional i.e. kinda goes along with my previous statement he told me im supposed to follow the movements with my eye ie the focal point of where my intention should be focused however he cautioned me about jumping into early to this and instead I am to focus on leading by the waist and the making my center clear at least the first part of center clear with weight distribution, the second part of center clear being intention.

Also ya the knee not extending is an issue I have he says not to do it but again my ability to sense my position is still limited and im still working on it because I know it disrupts your ability to ground if the knee is not inline with the heel because the body structure is off. <-my thought

Hi Taichikid:

Do you consider the Preparation Posture to be a distinct posture equal to the others?

I asked this question because we are told to begin observing the Ten Essentials beginning with the Preparation Posture, before we start any real movement. To do this, you really have to pause for some time once you begin trying to assume the external position. For us, this posture seems really easy, but it does actually require some attention and some understanding to start to get it right.

There are a few places when I am not clear about where you are focusing the power? I am not allowed to focus on specific points yet, my sifu is very particular in making sure I understand the ideas of lead every movement from the waist and having the center clear, then he will allow me to focus my intention

Your form looks very nice, so your teacher must be very knowledgeable. For us, the concept of Jin point is closely linked to the use of the intention and knowledge of the purpose of each movement. We would introduce this concept very early; however, that does not mean that everyone observes this point consistently. If you are not supposed to focus on this, I will not discuss it further.

I understand the ideas of lead every movement from the waist and having the center clear

I have heard about leading with the waist, but do not recall hearing about "having the center clear." Could you elaborate on what this means? I see that later in your post you link this to the weight distribution and the intention, but I am not sure how these concepts relate exactly to "the center."

When your hands are in close and the Jin point is close to your body, are you supposed to look closely at it? Can you tilt your head to do so? I asked about this before because he said you were never supposed to look down, unless it was intentional i.e. kinda goes along with my previous statement he told me im supposed to follow the movements with my eye ie the focal point of where my intention should be focused however he cautioned me about jumping into early to this

From what I understand, our gaze is also supposed to follow the movements. We should always look like we are putting our focus/spirit on what we are doing, and this is most reflected in the eyes. What this means practically is that the eyes and the face will tend to track the movements of the dominant hand or arm; however, we are also supposed to maintain a gaze that takes everything in. Many times, "taking everything in" means fixing the gaze at some distance, and rarely means staring close in at the imaginary contact point with the opponent. Even when we look down, our neck should not bend forward very much and break the line with the spine. We need to maing the feeling of "suspended from above." Also, the eyes and the face are not locked together and sometimes are oriented slightly differently as we look out the "corner of the eye" (e.g., in the middle of Brush Knee). At other times, the direction of the eyes and the face should coincide (e.g., the end of Single Whip).

Also ya the knee not extending is an issue I have he says not to do it but again my ability to sense my position is still limited and im still working on it because I know it disrupts your ability to ground if the knee is not inline with the heel because the body structure is off. <-my thought

Our requirements for the typical bow stance are that the front leg have roughly 60% of the weight and the back leg roughly 40%. The external guide is that the front knee should not pass the toes, but the real internal feel is that the front leg needs to have enough strength to receive energy from the back leg. It cannot do this if it extends too far forward. The crotch must be rounded with both knees pointing towards their respect toes. The center should be directly between the legs with both hips even. A common mistake is for people to shift the weight by "leaning," rather than by thrusting with the back leg. They then shift too much weight and end up moving the energy diagonally rather then directly forward. An easy place to feel for this is in Push. If it feels as if the pelvis shifts from over the left leg to over the right leg, this is not correct for our style.

my ability to sense my position is still limited and im still working on it because I know it disrupts your ability to ground if the knee is not inline with the heel because the body structure is off.

I think I have a minority viewpoint, but I do not think these are matters of ability to sense position, but rather matters of using the right "procedure" or having the right intention. There are multiple ways to shift the weight. For our style, I recommend that people try standing in a back-weighted bow stance and then shifting the weight forward while thrusting against the ground strongly with both feet and through the bubble well point. At a certain point, it becomes impossible to shift the weight any further forward while still retaining the ability to push with the back leg. This procedure is not exactly what we want, which is something more sequential and respectful of the division of full and empty in the energy; however, it does give a feel for how the front leg needs to feel in order to support the energy correctly. When I shift weight, I do not really sense the position of my front knee, but rather let it naturally assume a position that can support the amount of energy I want to transfer from the back leg.

I also want to say that your form looks very good overall, and I cannot say that I do not have the very same challenges that I talk about above. It is easier to faults in other people than to see the faults in ourselves. That's why we need teachers and older Kungfu brothers and sisters who can help us along. Most people even after even ten or twenty years of study make mistakes, since the study of Tai Chi never ends. It just gets deeper and deeper as we realize how subtle things matter.

Take care,
Audi

As far as center clear, well it has alot to do with the weight distribution but also intention, because through out the body we have multiple centers, but i think the main importance at my left is the weight distribution, that is having 100% of the weight on one foot, while physically that is impossible it is the intention of it. What this does is forces the body to stretch out the legiments and tendons that wouldn't normally get stretched allowing for better circulation to the muscles. So by center clear literally means that when you are forward you are forward and your intention is not split any other way then what you are doing. If you are back you are back and that is what you are. My teachers english is ok but i don't think its good enough to truly explain the purpose behind this and through observations I think it's a training method to help the student learn the idea of focusing intention as well as strengthening the legs, and increasing circulation. Before this teacher I had a teacher that taught 70/30 but I understand my teachers reasoning behind 100, 0. I think its because if your 70, 30 you can only retreat or go forward 70% but if your 100, 0 you can go forward 100% not to mention the other benefits of being 100, 0. Im sure i might be off a little but this is my interpretation of it. I mean I trust in my teacher 100% because I was stuck for a long time and 3 months with him and i had raised my level drastically. As far as the shifting weight forward to back we are supposed to keep the weight and the shift steady the center ie center of balance is to be remained sunk and at the same height consistently when we shift there is no push or pull but the weight shifts its self and remains constant speed height etc. Think of it as moving in a circle if you push the ground then its like stepping on the other end of the seesaw and your root will lift, but if you think of it as when your back your a point on the back side of a ball and to move forward you spin the ball therefore the balance point of the ball remains the same and your force is tripled because of centrifugal force.

Thanks for the video

The reason it does not look like traditional Yang is that Chen Wei-Ming first studied Xingyi and bagua in Beijing under Sun Lutang, and later studied Yang Taijiquan with Yang Chengfu and I believe his style of Yang Taijiquan is more than a little bit different than what was taught to him by Yang Chengfu do to the influence of Sun Lutang

The reason it does not look like traditional Yang is that Chen Wei-Ming first studied Xingyi and bagua in Beijing under Sun Lutang, and later studied Yang Taijiquan with Yang Chengfu and I believe his style of Yang Taijiquan is more than a little bit different than what was taught to him by Yang Chengfu do to the influence of Sun Lutang

A video puts Chen Wei Ming and Yang Chengfu side by side. Chen Wei-Ming's postures seem extremely similar Yang Chengfu's.

Check it out see what you think.

Chen Wei Ming and Yang Chengfu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQ4D_8n24Z8

Yes it is very similar but that does not mean he did not change it later. Yang Chengfu’s from changed as he got older too.

My Yang style comes from Tung Ying Chieh and it too is very similar to traditional Yang, but not exactly the same. The form does change from person to person if for nothing other than no two people are built exactly the same.

But the point is the video posted is not the same as what you find being taught by the Yang family so somewhere along the line between Yang Chengfu and Taichikid it got changed a bit either by Chen Wei-Ming, Leung Kingyu or Alwin Sit Sun Leung. Nothing wrong with that, it happens as time goes on, I was just pointing out that it appears to have not come from Chen Manching.