Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

The movement of course is similar to turn and chop with fist, except that the chop is done with the reverse of the flat of the hand rather than with the reverse of the clenched fist. But what happens thereafter? In Fu Zhong Wen's various videos on YouTube, the following movement is just as it is in Turn and Chop with Fist, i.e. the fist with heart of the fist facing the ground, circles laterally clockwise over the left hand, the weight on the left foot, prior to starting Chin Bu Pan Lan Chi. But in Yang Zhenduo's book 'Yang Style Taijiquan' the circling movement here with the right hand is done not with a fist but the hand still flat, with outstretched fingers. But again, in his book 'Mastering Yang Style Taijiquan' Fu Zhongwen says, in Louis' edition and translation at p145: 'The centre of gravity shifts toward the left leg; the body turns left. At the same time, the left elbow follows the turning of the body and sinks down. The left arm rotates out, causing the palm to gradually turn and face up. The right palm changes to a fist, extending forward and upward above the left palm. The vision attends to the right fist extending forward.' I was wondering if there was any explanation for this very slight discrepancy between Fu Zhongwen and Yang Zhenduo at this point in the Form, in terms of applications? Kind regards, Simon.

I view the fist/palm alternation as simply a variation on the rollback. The Yangs seem to introduce slight variations in the form as a way to help nail down the spot in the sequence. Too much sameness and you might tend to forget where you are.

That's an interesting observation, Jerry. Frankly, I still sometimes forget where I am in the form, even after years of practise. And it's always either because I'm distracted by some disturbance or noise from passersby if I'm outside, or the opposite: sometimes I feel so 'sunk' and loose, I just seem to lose track of space and time and don't know where on earth I am! The bizarrest moments - and thankfully these don't occur too often - are when I actually revert to an earlier part of the form. Kind regards, Simon.

Hi Simon,

I cannot explain the descrepancy in terms of application. In Carry the Tiger Return to the Mountain and Brush Knee and Twist Step, this contact movement is done with the palm. In Chop with Fist, it is done with the fist. In both cases, I interpret the basic application to be Rollback.

I follow Yang Zhenduo's and Yang Jun's method. I do not know why they do it that way, but I have assumed that it comes from a principle that is something like "leave well enough alone" or "don't change unless the opponent does something to make you change."

In Chop with Fist, you simply leave your hand in a fist. In White Snake Spits out Tongue, you leave your hand open to complete the circle and only close it to create backward continuity into the forward blocking motion of the right hand.

Take care,
Audi

Audi: I hope wer'e not talking at cross purposes here. It's difficult to put the point across without demonstrating it physically. I'm referring to the point after the immediate turn and chop with fist/reversed flat of hand after Fan Though the Back. After that,connecting to Chin Pu Pan Lan Chi, is a movement in which the weight shifts to the left leg as the left hand cirles down to the right side of the body with palm up and simultaneously the right hand executes a clockwise semicircle over the left hand and stops ahead of the player's chin, in front. In both Turn and Chop and in White Snake, this last movement is done with the fist according to one view. The application is to deflect a right puch with the left hand, turning the left hand under the opponent's wrist and securing it, while the right circles round above it to strike the left side of the opponent's face with the right side of the right fist. As I understand it from Yang Zhenduo's book, in White Snake, at this point, after the first turn and chop with the flat of the right hand, the right hand executes this semicircular movmenent again with the fingers extended, so that it's a kind of chop. But I was taught that after White Snake, this subsequent movement, which precedes Chin Pu Pan Lan Chi, is again done with the fist, as the flat hand reverts to a fist as it approaches the waist after the chop with the flat of the hand. This seems to accord with Fu Zhongwen's form instructions in his book. Hence what I see as the discrepancy. I'm sorry if I in didn't make myself clear in my original posting and have just misunderstood your reply. Of course, as I've said, it would be very easy to demonstrate what I mean physically, and words really do have there limitations, especially where this sort of thing is concerned. Kind regards, Simon

Greetings Simon,

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">After that,connecting to Chin Pu Pan Lan Chi, is a movement in which the weight shifts to the left leg as the left hand cirles down to the right side of the body with palm up and simultaneously the right hand executes a clockwise semicircle over the left hand and stops ahead of the player's chin, in front.</font>

It sounds like the hand movement you describe is similar to the transitional Rollback that precedes Separate Foot to the Right, except that in that posture, the Rollback is done shifting the weight forward into a left Bow Stance. Yang Jun does not teach this type of hand movement, and we do not show a right hammer fist or chop to the opponent's right cheek.

Rather than moving the left hand to the right side of the body or circling the right hand clockwise over the left hand, we do the move as follows:

Shift the weight backward and open the torso diagonally to the left. Simultaneously with that movement, move the left palm and forearm in a "downward, then inward and slightly rightward, and finally upward" arc, in order to curve the arm into a "Wardoff" position. Simultaneously with those same movements, move the right arm from its "chambered" position by the right hip upward and forward in an arc as you rotate the fist/palm from facing upward to facing downward.

The final position of this transitional movement ends up in a Rollback in a backweighted right Bow Stance with the left arm curved in Wardoff and the fingers pointing about one foot away towards the Jin point in the middle of the right forearm. The right wrist is maybe about at the same height as the right shoulder. The right fist/palm and right elbow are in line with the right foot and knee. Your navel is facing diagonally to the left.

For the rest of the movement, you will then continue the downward, leftward, and rearward arc implied by the upward and forward movement of the right arm and the leftward waist turn in order to do the rest of Chin Pu Pan Lan Ch'ui (Jin Bu Ban Lan Chui or Deflect Downward Parry and Punch).

As far as I can tell Fu Zhongwen's movements look the same, except that in White Snake, he seems to re-form his right fist in the upward movement, whereas we do it in the later downward movement to the left as you shift all your weight to the left leg and lift your right toes off the ground.

As for applications, I visualize only a generalized movement of my opponent at this point, but can give a suggestion if you need detail. Imagine that as you strike with your left standing palm at the end of White Snake, your opponent uses his left hand to grab your wrist, push it aside, or deflect it. You then pluck his left wrist towards you and try to connect to his left elbow with the soft part of your right forearm. From here you can attempt Split or Rollback. If you fail and the opponent pulls away or tries to obstruct or trap your right arm, you "chase" with Deflect Downward Parry and Punch, moving your right arm in a big or small circle as circumstances dictate.

Does this make more sense?

Take care,
Audi

I know I'm dredging up an old thread here but I've been thinking about the differences to these moves as of late. I also practice Mantis and in Mantis we have White Snake Spits (Darts) Tongue as well. Given that these styles came from the same region around the same time I'm basing my hypothesis on those factors when stating that it is my belief that these moves are probably quite similar, and the nuances were simply lost over time or when the form became taught primarily for health.

In Mantis when we perform White Snake Darts Tongue - the action is a pluck and strike (whether punch, palm, or fingers to eyes) at the same time. The plucking action draws your opponent into the strike. The move is often accompanied by a small shuffle back to adjust range and give you room to power the strike, otherwise you would be crowded. The shuffle, and the nature of the move, do not lend themselves to the soft and smooth transitioning and footwork in the Health version so perhaps that is the reason for the metamorphosis?

White Snake Darts tongue - my speculation (and please feel free to disagree or cite references that refute my observations) is that the left hand knocks the opponents right hand (guard or striking) downward opening the right side of their head for the backfist or backhand that follows. The backfist is checked by the opponents left hand. Your right hand now grabs the inside of their left arm or wrist and plucks their left arm down and to your right as you proceed rearward to bow stance, simultaneously striking as you slightly shuffle back.

Turn and Chop w/ Fist - enter the same way by taking opponents right hand out of the equation and striking with a backfist to the right side of the head. Strike gets checked by opponents left hand and your left hand comes down with a 'chopping' (aka - hammer) fist while proceeding 'forward' to Bow Stance. In my research of Mantis and Longfist the Chop w/ Fist usage implies striking downward like an axe.

I look forward to feedback and discussion.

Best Regards,
Randy Brown
--
Plum Blossom Academy
222 Great Rd., #13
Littleton, MA 01460
978-486-3095
http://www.PlumBlossomAcademy.com

[This message has been edited by RandyBrown (edited 08-13-2008).]

For application, either scenario from Simon or Audi would be fine. My own way of viewing this is as a scenario that contains possibilities for different outcomes:

From turn body and chop with fist, the left hand deflect an incoming strike downward while the right hand strikes to the face. If the incoming strike is a right hand strike, then your counterstrike could be deflected/blocked by the opponent's left, inwhich case your right hand then deflects that down by continuing the movement and your left hand strikes forward. If this is blocked by the opponent's right, you can move this down with your left and strike over the top with your right.

If on the other hand, the incoming is a left, the scenario goes the same as before, but working out that your last strike will be blocked by the opponent's right, in which case you are perfectly set up for rollback.

This rollback can be worked from the first scenario too by siezing the opponents left hand for your strike to the face and the end of the movement, just before the rollback.

So both Simon's and Audi's scenario's naturally arise from this.

As for the original question about the fist/palm difference - I think that there is no difference in application here, only an open handed rollback, or a fisted rollback. Perhaps the Yang Zhen Duo line is simply keeping the palm open to avoid confusion as to which part of the form we are in at that time. It's their family's form, so they have every right to tweak it!

Hope this is of use,

Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich (edited 08-14-2008).]

I tend to deconstruct the posture according to function as opposed to a rigid object that does not change according to the circumstances! Turning fist and chopping, when I execute, the fist, close to endpoint changes into yangzhang (open outstretched palm turning outwatd to deflect and possibly overturn the elbow and sweep with foot/leg.
Without a function in mind, I usually keep the rote posture as is, the same as in Snake Sticking out tongue!

Individual experience plus adaptability will surely allows for different interpretation (usage) in the real world!
There is, to my mind, no single functional use that is usable by all.