Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

I just discovered how to “bounce” my opponent away from me—but I don’t really understand yet the precise mechanics of what I’m doing and I’m wondering if you all could share your experiences with this or point me to an article or text on the energies (jin/s) involved.

This is what I did: I waited for my practice partner to start a push and tried to return the force to him at the same moment he pushed. This felt a lot different from making a larger circle, where the left side yields as the right side pushes. I think of the latter as a kind of revolving door, but what happened felt more like something ricocheting. I hesitate to say I was just being a wall (hard, resistant) because I actually felt more relaxed than usual. I had to have everything relaxed and structurally aligned b/c when I didn’t manage to do that, I was the one who got bounced out. It was really dependent on structure and timing. It felt like a slight yielding at first, and then a bounce, the way that a beach ball that you’ve hit might yield slightly before bouncing away.

So what is going on? Is this a kind of pung energy? Short energy? What kind of energy am I using? What am I doing? My partner had to stop and cough once or twice…was this only b/c I’d attacked his breath (made it uncomfortable to exhale as he was pushing)? I’m excited to be learning how to do this, but want to make sure I don’t hurt anyone.

Also, what are the mechanics of it? It felt like a small movement with the whole body, a kind of shrug. I was trying to gauge it so he would only have to take a step or two to regain balance, but it felt like I could have easily added more force. Is this a very small circle? Is this just a smaller version of the standard yield-and-return circle? If a beach ball gets indented at one point (where a hand hits it) and then bounces away, is this still a circular return? What’s going on inside the ball? How are the force vectors arrayed so that the ball “pushes back?”

Thanks,
Kal

[This message has been edited by Kalamondin (edited 11-17-2004).]

Hi Kal,

Sounds like you apply receiving_immediately_issuing power (jie jin with fa jin). I think it's more advanced jin than yielding-and-pushing when doing a large circle (long jin) or even a small circle (short jin). It relies rather on the principle (Li) than on mechanics. However as you mentioned timing and structure_in_the_moment of the contact are very important for it. I founded the descriptions of 'jie_jin & fa_jin' technique in CMC's books. It seems that in Yang tradition they trained and praised this jin/technique as one of the most desirable.

Here is an interesting clip that demonstrates something similar -
www.cb32.com/My Webs/gdgk/Gif/2004092502.WMV
The master is Lin Mo Gen - one of the top disciples of master Li Ya Xuan.

Take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yury Snisarenko (edited 11-17-2004).]

Hi Yuri,

Yikes! I wondered if it was a kind of accidental fa jing. I say accidental b/c I’m not very experienced with emitting energy. When I tried in the past there was too much tension in my body to do it without getting a headache, so I stopped trying to do fa jing in the interest of not hurting myself.

But in the last year or so, maybe it has been developing naturally. Sometimes during the sword form my sword shakes a little when my thinking mind is more quiet, and during the form I can sometimes feel the energy rolling up from the ground and out of my hands. So maybe that is what I was doing. Damn. I wasn’t sure b/c I felt no ill effects—I wasn’t tired later, or tight, or sore. I don’t think my internal energy is strong enough to practice this for long though and we practiced for longer than usual. So I still don’t understand what happened.

I thought I’d better ask b/c I know that fa jing can be really damaging. I did a little poking around on the net and found this article on jings: "Tan Jing (Talking About Jing)” by Zhang Yi Zun and translated by Peter Lim Tian Tek: http://sunflower.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/lunjing.htm
Down at the bottom of the article he talks about duan jing and the jie jing with fa jing that you were talking about. Maybe this is it, but I always think of these things as beyond my present skill level that can’t happen until I build up my internal strength more and really learn how to relax, but weird things are happening and I’m a little worried.

For now, I’m going to stop practicing this kind of bouncing out in push hands until I’m sure I know how to do it safely. I still want to know more about it. When I think about where it came from, I realize I am trying to copy a more experienced practitioner. I was just listening to what he was doing in a push hands exchange but I didn’t think to ask about it b/c I find it hard to talk and listen at the same time. I’ll check with him too when I see him next.

Would you and others be willing to share their early experiences with fa jing and duan jing?

Thanks for the book reference. I tried to look at the clip, but I think there’s a problem linking to the page b/c I couldn’t find it.

Thanks!
Kal

Hi Kal,

To watch the clip select, copy and paste the link in any downloading software or in IE. The cause of the problem is the blank in the URL.

Thank you for the link to the article about jins. There are not many sources with the explanation about different jins. I've heard about S. Olson book but unfortunately didn't read it yet. Maybe someone else knows other books and will tell us.

My experience with fajing started when I had felt that slow motion must be sometimes counterbalanced with light explosive movements. After slow form, I did a couple of the light lively pushes. This helped me to feel myself more confident in tuishou. I never attacked to "iron" bodies and always tried to remain light. Eventually my opponents lost their balance, and then I attacked.

Concerning the internal aspect of fajin – as we know it starts with nei gong but actually not many people in the West know what this exactly is, what the difference between qi gong, nei gong and nei dan. Therefore we mast be meticulous and sometimes careful when researching this matter.

Take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yury Snisarenko (edited 11-18-2004).]

Hi Kal:

Here are my two cents on your question, which has no authority behind it.

I would say that what you have described is what some call “jie jin(g).” “Jie” means to “intercept,” “sever,” or “cut off at the (mountain) pass.” By the way, there is another “jie” that could more formally be written as “jie4,” which means to “borrow.” The “jie” that means to “intercept” would be written as “jie2.” Both are common terms in the vocabulary of Taijiquan and are distinguished by tone in Chinese and by the use of different written characters.

As is said in the link you listed, the various “jings” are hard to distinguish, both in the theory and in practice. One could also say that the “bounce” you describe is really the simple characteristic of “peng jing,” which is the basis of all the jings. By using the term “jie,” one implies that the opponent’s power or jing is cut off even as it starts and never has a chance to manifest itself to any appreciable degree. The basis of the jing would still be “peng,” but this would not be its most distinguishing character.

In my own practice, I usually gauge the quality of my technique by whether or not there is a “bounce” to it. If there is no bounce, I usually feel that I am exhibiting a low level of skill and using techniques that are less characteristic of Taijiquan and more characteristic of other arts.

In an earlier post on another thread, I talked about always trying to make the opponent push him or herself. By this, I meant that one would be using some “peng” to bounce the opponent out and borrow energy, regardless of the physical technique used. In other words, even if one were to use a grabbing technique, one would exhibit a resilience that would force him or her to augment the power of the grab, just as if you were pulling on a rubber band that snapped back. The same would apply to Press, Push, Roll Back, etc. To accomplish this, one must often “follow” past the point that would at first seem necessary to “win.”

As for “fa jin,” I think that different schools treat this differently. I get the impression that for the Yangs, “fa jin” at its most basic is no more complex than “hua jin” (“neutralizing jin”). To do it well needs lots of training, perhaps with the staff/spear, but to do it at all is not particularly difficult. In other words, you are using “fa jin” every time you do push hands and practically whenever you “bounce” the opponent out. I would be curious if others see this differently.

Where I think one must be particularly careful is in exploring “short jing,” because the power tends to penetrate into the body of your practice partner and remain there. This can cause very serious harm. If, on the other hand, you use “long jin,” you simply “push” your practice partner over a long distance and he will usually have time to dissipate the energy harmlessly by stepping, hopping, or rolling away.

If you are managing to manifest “jie jin,” I would say that you should definitely stick with it and rejoice at your practice level. From what you describe, I do not see why you should not be capable of using this technique. Whether or not you can do it consistently and under pressure might, of course, be another matter.

I would also advise you absolutely to pursue the “bounce” feeling in general, since this can be one manifestation of what “peng” should be.

You also asked about the mechanism that causes the effects you describe. In my inexpert view, there are many aspects to it. At its most basic, it is the “relaxed extended” feeling you described very well. From this “disposition of your joints and tendons” arises “peng” as your body tends to establish certain equilibriums when encountering an outside force.

In addition to the operation of peng, it makes sense to consider the alteration of Yin and Yang. When your opponent seeks to push you, he must go through at least one complete cycle of Yin and Yang, storing and releasing, or materializing and dematerializing (filling and emptying). Where Yin turns to Yang is a critical juncture. After Yin becomes complete, Yang must follow; but the nature of this Yang is not fully determined until this juncture comes. If you can subtly take control of this juncture between the time the opponent has roused his spirit and mind intent, but before the Qi and Jin have begun to move, you can change how the Yang will manifest itself. In short, if the opponent controls the juncture, the Yang will manifest against you. If you control it, you can make the Yang manifest against the opponent.

I think I tried to describe my understanding of this in a post a year or so ago about full and empty. Basically, I talked about catching the opponent after he has filled and must begin to empty. If you can catch him in the right way, you can force him to empty his force against himself.

Take care,
Audi

Greetings to everyone.

Audi, thank you for the very interesting post.

I would like to clarify my last post. When I talked about jie jin actually I meant "jie1" that means "to extend", "to connect" and "to receive". There is a phrase in taiji theory "jie jin is fa jin, fa jin is jie jin". This is what I meant. But this is a quite advanced level (for me). I can't do that yet. The more practical approach is when the opponent directs his jin toward me, I slightly extend my arms, connect with his (fore)arm(s), stick and redirect it. If the redirection is done very shortly then the effect of bouncing arises.

When I talked about fa jin I tried to say about different levels of fa jin. Concerning the internal level of fa jin I with my limited knowledge know only about two ways to fa jin – one is used in such styles as Xin Yi Lu He, Dai family Xin Yi, the other in Taiji.

Take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yury Snisarenko (edited 11-26-2004).]

The preceding responses have numerous informative points. Rather than adding to what has already been discussed, I would like to introduce another perspective for consideration.

As I am not particularly knowledgeable about functional anatomy the following may contain errors, but I hope that forum members will correct any that are evident.

My working hypothesis is that a Taijiquan practitioner's structure should be held primarily through the slow-twitch muscles that are usually located deeper within the body. This, I feel, is probably why some practitioners benefit greatly from standing meditation (including holding form postures for lengthy periods as one would when meditating). The resulting breakthroughs in rooting ability and push-hands skill can probably be traced to functional alignments of a practitioner's posture such that these slow-twitch muscles are used, thus allowing the fast-twitch muscles to stay relatively relaxed/resilient and able to be used to respond to their opponent's changes in defense or attack. This image of the deeper slow-twitch muscles being used to hold the integrated structure while the more superficially located fast-twitch muscles maintain their relaxed resiliency resonates with the 'steel wrapped in cotton' image. It also may fit with the increased use of 'tendons and ligaments' rather than muscles postulated for advanced Taijiquan practitioners (although I don't feel that I entirely understand this concept).

Bouncing an opponent would be a result of that rooted, structurally integrated alignment maintained by the slow-twitch muscles allowing the resilient outer muscles to provide the 'soft' outer surface of the 'ball' of the practitioner. A push against the 'ball' surface would be transferred to the ground through the structure and rebound into the opponent similar to a basketball rebounding off the floor. A deflated basketball, without the structural support that the inner air provides, will not bounce. A properly inflated basketball sitting on the floor will also not bounce unless compressed (e.g. struck sharply on the top) against the floor (i.e. its root). Perhaps a basketball is not the best analogy for explaining this concept, but I think you'll understand the idea behind it. An opponent pushing on a taijiquan practitioner should have that force redirected, through the body structure maintained by the slow-twitch muscles and skeletal structure, into the ground (root), and the resilient integrated body structure, maintained by relaxed fast-twitch muscles, would then rebound and bounce the opponent away.

In my opinion, the ability to bounce an opponent demonstrates progress in structural alignment, rooting and relaxation of the fast-twitch muscles. The description of bouncing the partner as given in the initial post does not quite match the concept that I describe (although it is close and is on a similar track) since Kal is using the rooted and aligned body structure to push against the partner simultaneously with the partner's attack, whereas my description involves more of an absorption of the partner's energy such that it 'compresses' you into your rooted structure and immediately rebounds it back into them to bounce them away.

Does this theoretical explanation seem reasonable?

DP

Actually, after re-reading Kal's initial post description, I think it probably is precisely what my preceding post was describing. The only difference is that Kal is timing the additional energy and adding it to the bounce produced from what I described.
DP

Greetings to everyone,

DPasek,

I agree with you on most of your post and must say that you explained some missing points in the discussed topic.

I would only more emphasize the importance of the slow-twitch muscles and tendons relationship, the fact of their connection.

I think that your ball analogy is perfect. But what exactly that ball in the human body is ? IMHO here is another missing point. This point is dantian. The theory and the method of dantian in the internal martial arts I (and not only me) call neigong (internal training/achievement of the internal martial arts). It has many common points to every internal MA.

Take care,

Yuri


[This message has been edited by Yury Snisarenko (edited 12-03-2004).]

(Perhaps a basketball is not the best analogy for explaining this concept, but I think you'll understand the idea behind it.)

this caused me to smile, while in Beijing visiting my couches teacher I was bounced much like some one dribbling a basketball. I felt and probably looked like a basketball.

Interesting the mechanics mentioned in the slow and fast muscle fibers. It seems that there is a layer that one connects with depending on ones level, I never thought of it in this way.

We use the metaphor of a balloon, as well. I view the dantin as being connected by 2 strings one being the crown of the head the other being the bubbling well of the foot.

The tighter the string is held, the quicker the ball responds and one gets bounced out directly instead of being lead into emptiness when receiving power. The dantain moves after the mind, the mind is the string.

david

Hi Audi, Yuri, DP, David

It’s really funny: I wrote the following response to Audi’s post yesterday, before seeing DP’s basketball explanation. I was thinking about it myself and came to the exact same conclusions, even going so far as to research basic bouncing physics on some websites (I listed one below).

Audi: Thanks for your good response—I feel a lot better about it now, and my practice partner indeed felt no ill effects. Before I had a chance to read your response I picked up a copy of B.K. Frantzis’s “The Power of Internal Martial Arts: Combat Secrets of Ba Gua, Tai Chi, and Hsing-I” and his discussion of “short” focused jin made me feel better b/c I could tell I’m not doing that!

Thanks for helping me distinguish between jie4 (borrowing) and jie2 (intercepting). From our other discussions, I do think of pung jing as a bouncy kind of energy—not that it leaps about—but that with its expansive, rounded, rubber-ball type characteristics things naturally bounce away. I think I was probably doing some combination of pung, jie4, and jie2, pung just being the underlying structural jing. I think jie4 came into play b/c it felt like the impulse of my opponent’s push traveled through me unimpeded (or as unimpeded as I get!) and came back out again where my hand was pushing at his chest. I didn’t feel like I was adding any energy to the exchange, other than the small amount necessary to maintain my upright structure and turn his energy back to him.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
In other words, even if one were to use a grabbing technique, one would exhibit a resilience that would force him or her to augment the power of the grab, just as if you were pulling on a rubber band that snapped back. The same would apply to Press, Push, Roll Back, etc. To accomplish this, one must often “follow” past the point that would at first seem necessary to “win.” </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, can you explain more about following to seeming excess? I don’t quite follow you there. But I think I understand the rubber band feeling your talking about. I wonder if it’s similar to something my teacher was talking about: for increasing yin, he instructed us to think of our hand (or whatever’s making contact) as a lead blanket—soft, conforming perfectly to the shape and direction of the opponent’s movement, utterly compliant, but slightly heavy so that everything the opponent tries to do is made just a little bit harder. I think that if the opponent is working just a little bit harder than necessary, then this might be the similar to the extra “give” of a rubber band that forces the opponent to pull just a little bit harder than he might otherwise. Being resilient, or heavy like this gives you just a little bit more “space” to turn when you move to counter b/c your sudden change from yin to yang or vice versa leaves him with a sudden and unexpected “slack” that he must first try to follow in order to keep sticking with you.

I’m not sure they’re exactly the same thing, I’ll have to play with it a little and see what differences I can find, but they seem related (but isn’t everything? : ))

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> As for “fa jin,” I think that different schools treat this differently. I get the impression that for the Yangs, “fa jin” at its most basic is no more complex than “hua jin” (“neutralizing jin”). To do it well needs lots of training, perhaps with the staff/spear, but to do it at all is not particularly difficult. </font>

Ha! I’m sure there are those who would beg to differ about the difficulty…but I’m not precisely one of them. I believe I’ve had some accidental success with fa jin in my sword form—when I was really relaxed and not particularly thinking of anything. Getting to the point where it could happen naturally took a long time, but when I finally relaxed enough to stop thinking about the form, it suddenly happened and I remembered thinking, “Why, this is so easy! Why can’t I do this all the time? Why can’t everybody do this?” Of course, if I’m not relaxed I can’t do it at all.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> Where I think one must be particularly careful is in exploring “short jing,” because the power tends to penetrate into the body of your practice partner and remain there. This can cause very serious harm. If, on the other hand, you use “long jin,” you simply “push” your practice partner over a long distance and he will usually have time to dissipate the energy harmlessly by stepping, hopping, or rolling away. </font>

Thanks, you’re absolutely right and I’m not even going there (yet). I was confused about what I was doing b/c the “build up” (how much yang energy I permitted my partner to express) was short and my expression of force was “short” in that it was quick and sudden and I didn’t have any “wind up” or distance to travel since my arm was already in contact with the place where the force came out. But when I did push him I think maybe I was pushing with a long jing that I just truncated so that he wouldn’t fall over, but I’m sure he could have rolled if I hadn’t been using baby pushes.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> If you are managing to manifest “jie jin,” I would say that you should definitely stick with it and rejoice at your practice level. From what you describe, I do not see why you should not be capable of using this technique. Whether or not you can do it consistently and under pressure might, of course, be another matter. </font>

Thanks, I do need to work on it more…and I am hoping I’ll have a little lag time to figure out how to relax more before my practice partners start using it on me! I asked my teacher about it and other than asserting that there must always be a circle, he said it was OK to practice.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"> At its most basic, it is the “relaxed extended” feeling you described very well. From this “disposition of your joints and tendons” arises “peng” as your body tends to establish certain equilibriums when encountering an outside force. </font>

Certain equilibriums—interesting! Yes, that’s what it felt like. The spaces between joints give you the space for “shock absorbtion” allowing the system to regulate pressure internally—some give and take.

Nice discussion of Yin and Yang also. Yes, when I allowed him to start pushing me, and then turned it into pushing him, I controlled the juncture from Yang (him) to Yin (me), making a quick change to back to Yang (me). When I didn’t allow him to push, I controlled his juncture between Yin (yielding) and Yang (pushing), covering the change such that when he turned to Yang, his push “bounced” back at him. Covering his energy was like focusing a satellite dish so that whatever he emitted hit the “center” and just got reflected back at him in a tight beam. I think this is exactly the same as the indentation in a beach ball that I mentioned. Maybe this is how the bounce works: the force hits (or creates) a concave surface in the roundness of pung energy, which then reflects it back. Erm, yeah, here’s a better discussion of bouncing for those who are also foggy about basic physics: http://rabi.phys.virginia.edu/HTW/bouncing_balls.html

I don’t know if you mentioned it in your older discussion of empty and full (which I remember reading, but not the details—will have to look at it again), but the idea of attacking the breath dovetails nicely with all of this discussion of yin and yang, empty and full. If you can push right as the opponent inhales, you can often uproot them. It’s hard to counter. I was lucky enough to push hands with a Chen style master once and I (gently, politely) tried this on him. He made a small internal circle in his chest and rooted, diverting my upward push into downward rooting energy. Fascinating to watch! At the time I was astounded and spluttering, but when I asked my Yang style teacher about it and demonstrated, he made and even smaller circle and sent it back at me! Wow! What a lesson! The Chen style master could probably have done the same, but I wasn’t his student, so I think he was being polite in not pushing me although the disparity between our skill levels was obvious.

One more note on breathing: if you get them in the transition between inhaling (yin) and exhaling (yang) and push as they begin to exhale, you can often stop their push entirely b/c they won’t want to push if they can’t breathe out while pushing.

DP: I think I actually was bouncing him the way you suggested. It really didn’t feel like I was adding force. I was using pung energy to maintain a certain level of expansion, or springiness. If he exerted an angular momentum of 4 inches, then that’s about how far I pushed him back—compression, expansion. I think you hit the nail on the head with suggesting it was progress in structure, rooting, and relaxation. I think I’ve heard something similar about fast and slow-twitch muscle fibers, but I don’t remember my anatomy well enough. Sounds good.

Yuri: When I first wrote about the experience, I was having a hard time figuring out the circularity of the movement. It didn’t feel like I was making any circle to return his force, so I was quite confused. But the more I think about it, the more the experience is sorting itself out. I think I somehow lucked into making my body structure itself be the circle. I must admit I wasn’t thinking about the dan tien at all, but I did feel rounded and expansive, as though there were space between my joints. If I understand it right, the more we sink our chi to the dan tien, the more it concentrates there, building pressure for an outward expansion of pung jin throughout the body. The pung energy expands the joints, making the body more round, and increasing the joints’ springiness and ability to absorb shock (like shock absorbers in cars).

David: Interesting balloon-string metaphor—I’m going to have to think about that one some more.

Well, as always, thank for sharing your knowledge and experience!

Happy training!
Kal

Hi Kalmondin

Bouncing...

I can think of a couple of things that would produce a bouncing of your partner.

First, having a relaxed and 'sunk' posture and listening to your partner - you can probe into his centre, in a connected way, just as he has started pushing you.

When he pushes he is most likely seperating himself from the ground by pushing against it, or perhaps his push originates elsewhere in his body. So just as his body is made into one unit and isolated from the ground - So he bounces off you.

I would say this requires a good root, little internal skill but excellent timing.

The other way would be to channel their force down through your body into the ground, breaking their root, moving under their centre of gravity (without being compressed by their weight) and releasing the force you have stored.

IE the vertical circle - where you can bring the attraction and repulsion stages closer and closer together until they appear almost simultaneously.

These, and slight variations of them, are the only ways I can think of that I 'bounce' an opponent away.

Do either of them sound likely to be what you are doing or similar?

Anything you would like me to expand upon?

Stephen

OOps!

Just noticed you made th above post while I was writing mine.

I'll read it through

In my own small experience we focus on emptiness, leading a person to emptiness they tend to bounce away. It¡¯s like falling in a hole. There is absolutely no pushing its really following, leading and returning.

So when I bounce some one away its really them bouncing themselves out as I follow. The body¡¯s reaction to falling is to try to put the feet down. Pick up a baby sometime and watch as the feet instinctively search for the ground.

Remove the sense of ground, and most people will reflexively jump back (bounce out)
They/we laugh when this happens as it really seems as though your falling, and all actions are really happening because of your self.

(he instructed us to think of our hand (or whatever’s making contact) as a lead blanket—soft, conforming perfectly to the shape and direction of the opponent’s movement, utterly compliant, but slightly heavy so that everything the opponent tries to do is made just a little bit harder)

instead of harder I would think making it attract the force so that you can lead it would be a better way of looking at it. 4oz, very, very light with just enough so that he follows. to light and your running away, they will follow this as it is really empty, to heavy and he knows you and will find your empty spot. the basic idea is that you know him and he doesnt know you.


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 12-03-2004).]

Mr Leaf

I also practice this way - I don't expect it is what Kalmondin is describing though, as he describes a sensation of bouncing the person away.

I agree about the touch too. If you have any strength in your hand the other person can find their centre against it, it is like supporting him.

We want to give emptiness everywhere.

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 12-03-2004).]