Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Hi everyone,

I have a question about how to counter Shoulder Stroke ("kao"), but need to give some background first.

At the moment, I am aware of four uses of the injunction to "distinguish full and empty," three of which apply to hua jin ("transforming, neutralizing, or dissolving energy"). Of the three, one involves applying empty to the opponent's full and full to her empty in order to receive the jin and circle it back. Another involves applying full to the opponent's full or empty to her empty in order to add to her excess or subtract from her deficiency. The third involves interrupting the opponent's ability to divide full and empty in herself so that she cannot apply force to you.

I have learned two iconic ways to apply Shoulder Stroke, one from a closed position and one from an open position; however, the only natural counters I am confident of involve simply yielding to the attack in a way that avoids the force landing, but does not really do any of the three things I describe above. All it does is apply empty to the opponent's full, but does not really do much else. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Just to be clear, the "iconic" applications I am referring to involve vertically circling the opponent, using Pluck ("cai/ts'ai"), so that she is almost lying on top of your shoulder and has one or both hands controlled. How can you circle the energy back from this position?

I can imagine how to abort the attack and perhaps prevent the opponent from applying force to begin with. This would be one of the three strategies, but I cannot think of how to apply the other two? Any thoughts?

Take care,
Audi

Wow, I was just working on this very thing last week. I really could not come up with an effective counter in any real-time fashion, but I still have a lot to learn.

My thinking is that once someone is inside (past your hands and arms) then the only thing you can do is step back, or grab and step back as in da lu. Just a thought. I'd be interested in hearing more on this subject.

The counter I was taught was to float with the strike like a log on a wave. It seems reasonably effective. My only problem with this strategy is that it seems to leave things at an impass, without a way to continue the flow. It was this impass that motivated my post.

I should also add that whether or not you can execute this defense depends on the relative skill of the two participants in manipulating exchanges of full and empty. I was taught very explicitly that it is not a case of technique B always working as a counter to technique A.

I don't understand the difference between the general behavior in defense against kao or the other seven techniques. One of my friends studies xin-yi quan, so he often tries to hit me with the body&sholder. I, as usually, just move backwards or aside of his body seeking the moment when his movement get exhausted.

If you are getting stuck in the end of your retreat, it just means that you didn't choose appropriate length of the stance or didn't make small pre-retreat to adjust your position.

Speaking about empty and full, at the beginning of this situation I am empty since he is quite full and straightforward. Then he definitely will become empty but just for the moment. If you catch that moment, he\she will be yours.

So I think it's useful to work at emptiness sometimes . Hey BL and Stephan, thanks for reminding us about that occasionally



[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 11-16-2006).]

To apply shoulder strike, you opponent must really want to do you in so if one is competant, then you have him! As this is close up and tight application and short range, I have not seen too many Yang style application of 'shoulder kao' strike in action and that does not mean it is nonexistant. Just that the application is limited within a modern framework.

Hi Audi,

Is the kao application you're referring to such that your arm is controlled or being pulled tight and the opponent's shoulder is in contact under that arm? If so:

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Audi:
The counter I was taught was to float with the strike like a log on a wave. It seems reasonably effective. My only problem with this strategy is that it seems to leave things at an impass, without a way to continue the flow. It was this impass that motivated my post.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, that's what I'm thinking, especially if your arm is pulled tight and you can't back away from the shoulder. As far as the impasse is concerned, I'd read this as luring into emptiness. You float on the attack and when the energy has passed you use the moment to sink, loosen and pull - flow resumed!

If you specifically want to circle the energy back, then you could pull with a view to getting a resisting reaction, which you then follow and add to. Or float until the energy is spent as outlined before, then loosening and sinking might get you to a position to apply ji.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I should also add that whether or not you can execute this defense depends on the relative skill of the two participants in manipulating exchanges of full and empty. I was taught very explicitly that it is not a case of technique B always working as a counter to technique A.</font>

That's the gulf between theory and skills that we all have to look across!

Regards,

Rich

[This message has been edited by Rich (edited 11-16-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Rich (edited 11-16-2006).]

One response that I was tought is press. Of course, if you allow the opponent to get in past your basic guard, this may prove more difficult.

FWIW

another idea might be to not have a guard at all. if there is no guard there is nothing to get past.

//

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 11-27-2006).]

If your receiving Jin is good, direct his whole body weight down the ground even though your hands are held. Just like your opponent's two hands are pushing the swing.
Then raise your one knee attacking like chicken standing on one foot.

Depending on their center and the direction of force push down just around the base of the neck where it meets the shoulder as they come in at just about the point of contact, or push the shoulder blade forward.

If they are setup and centered there is nothing wrong with stepping back. You can also absorb and come down from the top with your shoulder as well.

My apologies I am much better at showing this than explaining it on a web page.

Hi, T
Quite Clear in applying to the opponent.

some kao applications in this video clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzdGxlY4_dE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl4yhVkUSts

[This message has been edited by Gu Rou Chen (edited 11-28-2006).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by bamboo leaf:
another idea might be to not have a guard at all. if there is no guard there is nothing to get past.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Bamboo Leaf, for this amusing and paradoxical reply, which, for my own part, I have to say is the most pertinent of all of those so far on this thread. Clearly, you love the Tao Te Ching and the Book Of Chuang Tzu, and these, I believe, as I am sure you do too, are far more important for the study of Tai Chi in every aspect, including the spiritual, health and martial aspects, than any particular observations on individual applications. (Well, allright, I know I posted a reply on the applications of hook hand recently - but that has to be placed in a wider context). Kind regards, Simon.

thanks for the kind words.
both clips posted are very nice, they also show the idea i was trying to convey. the other in each clip are bounced out by their own idea of preserving a space instead of just flowing with the next change.

the teachers can sense, feel, this idea within the others body, basically an unaware part that is locked in an idea of maintaining a space and so can not change.


[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 12-09-2006).]