Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Greetings everyone,

I have read in a few different places that Yang Chengfu taught two separate forms, the large frame 108 movement form we are accustomed to and a second, advanced set which he passed on only to his most senior students.

This second form, Long Boxing, was said to consist of 59 movements, many taken from the large frame, and to be performed at a predominantly fast pace with explosive fajin movements.

It is also said that elements of Long Boxing were incorporated into the Tung fast form.

Can anyone corroborate or deny this? Does Yang Long Boxing still exist? Has anyone seen it performed/found footage of it?

Greetings,

We had a discussion about the so-called long fist form “changquan” back in 2005, and there I translated a passage from Chen Weiming’s book that described what he had learned from Yang Chengfu as changquan:

Here is my rough translation of Chen Weiming’s Preface to the brief section on Changquan in his book. From what I can gather, what Chen documented in his book was not a “Yang family long fist form,” but something Chen sort of knitted together from something that Yang Chengfu taught him, but that was probably not a “form” in the sense we usually think of it. It may have been discrete scenarios or short sequences. In Chen’s book, this Preface is followed by a page listing movement names from the changquan taught by Yang Chengfu. Next comes a page of expanded movement names for changquan, presumably compiled by Chen. Then there are several pages of explanations for each posture/sequence, very brief and sketchy.

~~~
Taiji changquan preface by Chen Weiming

Mr. [Yang] Chengfu taught me taijiquan, then he further taught me taiji changquan [long boxing]. Within [changquan] there are a number of postures that are not present in taijiquan; the remaining [postures] are fairly similar—only the transitions throughout are different. This would indicate, therefore, that taijiquan originally had no fixed methods, nor did it have fixed forms. Taijiquan and changquan both contain peng, lu, ji, an, cai, lie, and zhou; [it] only lacks one: kaojin. I wanted to add the kao of dalu to the quan [form], but after several years of hard thinking, I was unable to get a way of linking [the postures] together. Now, inadvertently, I’ve suddenly gotten it, so that the linkages make for a perfect seemless whole; I daresay I am pleased with it. Then I took those cases where taijiquan has a left form but lacks a right, or has a right form but lacks a left, and I’ve added them in for balance. I’ve also observed what is known as the old style of taiji as transmitted by the Chen clan of Henan. This “Step back dispatch monkey,” is like a retreating form of “Brush knee twist step left and right,” and the turning of the body is especially light and lively. So I’ve also added it in, naming it “Retreat step brush knee.” All together there are 108 postures. Having taken Mr. [Yang] Chengfu’s transmitted changquan and expanded it, I do not dare speak of having invented something, but with regard to the intent of taijiquan, there is some increase, but there is no decrease; there are some changes, but there is no copying. Perhaps this can be of some help for students in their researches.
—Weiming, Winter, 1927
~~~

So, my sense of it is that this provides no clear evidence that there was a “changquan” form in the Yang family curriculum. I also see nothing in Chen Weiming’s materials that suggest the changquan was faster, slower, more or less martial, or more or less important than the received Yang taijiquan form.

If you’re interested, here’s the old thread where the discussion took place: http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/phpBB3/ ... n&start=15

Also, there is a very good on-line translation by Paul Brennan of Chen Weiming’s book on Taiji Sword that includes the above explanation and complete description of the so-called long fist form. Find it here, and scroll down to the sections titled, “Introduction to the Taiji Long Boxing Set”: http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... iji-sword/

Take care,
Louis

Hi Louis,

In the time between your posting and now, I read over the entirety of the thread you linked to as well as Chen Weiming's description. The explanation of the 59 movements was certainly elucidating, but in review of the evidence presented it seems that you have indeed arrived at the right conclusion (that Long Boxing is not a distinct form, but rather a style of free-flowing practice encouraged by Yang Chengfu).

I'd also like to thank you for the exceptional quality of your response. It's rare to find forums that maintain high standards of academic discourse, but in reading over the linked thread I was amazed in equal parts by your commitment to proper taijiquan scholarship, your willingness to assist others in their understanding, and your ability to articulate your knowledge with a civil air of humility.

These are the characteristics that all practitioners of taiji should strive to embody; they speak highly of the quality of your art and the sifus from who you learned it.

Per my Shifu there is a fast form that comes from Yang Chengfu…..kinda sorta.

Yang Chengfu had multiple discussions with Tung Ying Chieh (my Shigong) about a fast form however when it came time to actually work on it Yang Chengfu died. Tung Ying Chieh developed a fast form based on the conversations he had with his shifu (Yang Chengfu) that is the first fast form from Tung Ying Chieh and he called it the Yang fast form. There is a second fast form from Tung Ying Chieh which is called….the fast form... and that one is a combination of his Yang Taijiquan and his prior training in Wu (Hao) style Taijiquan

It could be this first fast form that you are talking about since Tung Ying Chieh did call it the Yang Fast form out of respect for his shifu since it was based on their conversations

T wrote:There is a second fast form from Tung Ying Chieh which is called….the fast form... and that one is a combination of his Yang Taijiquan and his prior training in Wu (Hao) style Taijiquan...

"the fast form" is also known as the Family Fast Form.

Some Good sources to see these Fast Forms are the Tung History tape. Performed by Alex Dong and Randy (Don't know Randy's last name).

And Mastering Tai Chi Chuan Fast Set by Professor Daniel Lee.

Here are a couple of links to Tung Ying Chieh's son, Tung Hu Ling, doing the short Fast Form.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jJ0eTawWzU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI46O2SKxVQ

BBTrip wrote:some Good sources to see

Or watch my shifu and I have been taught both as well

After reading over Louis’s post I wondered…Hmm, If Chengfu taught Tung and Chen the same advanced set…then there should be similarities in their advanced sets.

So, I took a quick glance at the link that Louis provided. http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... iji-sword/

The first thing I noticed was this excerpt.

TAIJI LONG BOXING
動步攬雀尾
[1] MOVING-STEP CATCH THE SPARROW BY THE TAIL

...Taiji Boxing set, except that when you roll back, your left foot slightly lifts and advances a half step, then when you press out, your right foot slightly lifts and advances a half step, then when your hands withdraw after the press, your left foot again advances a half step...

WeiMing’s excerpt seems to describe the stepping procedure of Roll Back and Press at the end of Tung’s 3rd set.
Not his Fast set; his third set.

This is just a cursory glance.
It is not intended to be conclusive evidence of anything.
I just thought that some fellow Taiji practitioners would find the above connection interesting.

If you’d like to see the move here’s a couple of links.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vGrIgrtfO4#t=05m57s
5:57 Mark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKpGdA8#t=23m23s
23:23 Mark

Don't know if they were taught the same set, the first fast form (from Tung Ying Chieh) allegedly comes from discussions that Yang Chengfu had with Tung Ying Chieh near and at the end of Yang Chengfu's life. They never got to work on the actual form due to the death of Yang Chengfu

Greetings all,

Could someone kindly explain where the fast forms fit into your curriculum? I have a question that I do not know how to articulate well, but maybe can begin with some preliminary ones. For instance:

When is your fast form taught in relation to the slow form, weapons, and push hands?
How often is it recommended to practice it?
Is it considered as Qi nurturing, health promoting, or merely good for martial training?
How do you find that the mind set differs from doing slow form, single-movement practice, or partner practice?

Over the last few years, I think my practice and understanding of Tai Chi have definitely improved and also turned more to martial aspects. One of the things that I am now more acutely aware of is that each of the aspects of my practice seems to have advantages and disadvantages and that I need to manage this relationship on more than one axis: such as, slow versus fast, solo versus partner, fixed versus free, and static versus live. I have begun increasingly to find that even as I generally keep these types of practice separate, I must still be conscious of keeping elements of one in the other. I am curious how this dance of opposites is managed in practicing fast forms.

Take care,
Audi

I learned the “Yang fast form” after the long form, the Jian, one of the 2 dao forms and after stationary and moving push hands. I then learned the 2nd Dao form and then I learned the 2nd fast form after that (the one based on Yang and Hao). The Yang fast form is interested in Fajin and the 2nd fast form is interested in fajin and qinna.

The People that can best answer your questions are, of course, the Tungs/Dongs. Kai Ying, Alex or Zeng Chen or their disciples like Chip Ellis or Janet Jin, etc.

I am just a long time Taiji enthusiast who still has lots to learn. The following are my personal thoughts that do not speak for the Tungs. Tomorrow they may not even speak for me.

Audi wrote:Could someone kindly explain where the fast forms fit into your curriculum?

The Fast Form is from a long time, well known, senior student of Yang Chengfu that also worked on Methods of Applying Taiji Boxing with Yang Chengfu.
As a side note: Fighting looks like fighting. But, the Dongs are one of the few, that when sparring, actually use the 8 techniques in their sparring. You know, as opposed to general kickboxing. There is nothing wrong with kickboxing. I’m not picking a fight with kickboxers.

Where does it fit in?

Louis Swaim wrote: Taiji changquan preface by Chen Weiming

Mr. [Yang] Chengfu taught me taijiquan, then he further taught me taiji changquan [long boxing]...

When you add this:

Lao Tse wrote:It is also said that elements of Long Boxing were incorporated into the Tung fast form.

It's a no brainer for me.

Audi wrote: When is your fast form taught in relation to the slow form, weapons, and push hands? How often is it recommended to practice it?

I doubt you intended it, but the wording of “your Fast Form” “your curriculum” has a certain implication that I cannot put into words. Separation, distance? This is an embrassingly insecure admission, but It slightly, only slightly makes me wonder: Does he want me to validate why I know Taiji Fast Form?

Audi wrote:How do you find that the mind set differs from doing slow form, single-movement practice, or partner practice?

The Mind set? I observe the same Taiji principles and strategies I observe in the long form, and pushing hands.
I practice Taiji everyday. When I first learned it I practiced it everyday for years. I now practice the FF as time allows or as the feeling hits me.

Also it's not just the Long Form sped up as I see in so many other fast sets. There is nothing wrong with those who sped up the long form. I am not picking a fight with sped up long formers.

Audi wrote:Over the last few years, I think my practice and understanding of Tai Chi have definitely improved and also turned more to martial aspects. One of the things that I am now more acutely aware of is that each of the aspects of my practice seems to have advantages and disadvantages and that I need to manage this relationship on more than one axis: such as, slow versus fast, solo versus partner, fixed versus free, and static versus live. I have begun increasingly to find that even as I generally keep these types of practice separate, I must still be conscious of keeping elements of one in the other. I am curious how this dance of opposites is managed in practicing fast forms.

I don’t see the Fast Form in terms of versus this or that. Again, I like what Chen Weiming says about Taiji Long Boxing.

Louis Swaim wrote: Taiji changquan preface by Chen Weiming

with regard to the intent of taijiquan, there is some increase, but there is no decrease; there are some changes, but there is no copying. Perhaps this can be of some help for students in their researches.

I also like this.

Lao Tse wrote:Long Boxing is not a distinct form, but rather a style of free-flowing practice encouraged by Yang Chengfu.

I think the FF is a good tool for any Practitioner to have in their Taiji tool box.

I think the use of word Fast in Fast Form is inaccurate. Really it’s a combination of slow and fast. Yin and yang.

For me, it really feels like a flow of application. In fact, the way it was taught to me was as application. It has helped me mentally clarify my intention, my intention to move the energy to move the body.

For instance: Grasp Sparrows Tail, the first move of the FF is so simular to the description in Methods of Applying Taiji Boxing, http://brennantranslation.wordpress.com ... hiyong-fa/

1. Application of GRASP THE SPARROW’S TAIL
上手為甲下手為乙如二人對敵乙執右拳直打甲之胸部甲自乙右膊下抬起雙手繞外邊轉上與乙膊靠接以意運氣往外推去右足同時往前上一步左足在後蹬勁將乙打出如圖是也
A [Yang Chengfu] is the defender. B is the attacker. If when the two people are opposing each other, B uses his right fist to strike A’s chest, A lifts both hands from below B’s right forearm, turns outward and upward to go against B’s forearm, and using intention to move energy, pushes outward. At the same time, he steps his right foot forward and presses back with his left foot, sending B away.

It has the same funtional effect on the opponent.

Another move from the FF helped me understand the intention of Playing the Lute.

7. Application of PLAY THE LUTE
如左摟膝式甲立敵人如乙右手自右外方繞裏直打來甲右手隨乙手繞直時甲右手囘勁扣粘乙裏手腕同時甲左手招起托乙的肘尖甲指掌俱要伸開手心用力將乙膊托直將乙的前足尖提起使乙不得力也甲右足坐實左足為虛式如圖是也
If A is in the posture of LEFT BRUSH KNEE and B coils his right hand in from the right side to do a straight punch, … A’s left hand lures in and props up B’s elbow. A’s fingers should be spread and the palm forcefully prop up B’s forearm, causing B’s front foot to lift and rendering him unable to apply power. A’s right leg sits full, left leg empty.

Most demos of this application are done in a downward application. The FF application causes the Opponent’s front foot to lift so that he cannot apply power. It’s kind of like lifting him in the air using his wrist and elbow.

Sorry, I’m not a good writer like you and Louis so I cannot fully get this across how this is used. I’ll search for a video that shows what I mean.

Playing the Lute has become one of my favorite go to moves. It is automatic and spontaneous response for me. Much like the way a trained boxer uses a jab or right cross in competition.

I practice the Fast sets for the similar to the reason I practice Pushing hands. To improve my functional understanding of the 8 energies and 5 steps, sticking and listening, etc.
Before the FF sets I primarily won with yin, rollback, acceptance, borrowing. After the Fast Form set…hmm, I feel I have a better balance of Yin and Yang in my Taiji functionality.


I don’t know if my response answers any of your preliminary questions, but I tried.

I cannot speak of anything from Chen Weiming and I mean no offense to anyone but my sifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh so I trust what he has told me and to be honest I tend to feel that this is really over thinking the issue. However If you are looking to the Tung family to answer the question then I recommend Tung Kai Ying. He is the only one listed here that trained with Tung Ying Chieh and he later trained with his father Tung Hu Ling

My last on this

If you are talking the fast forms as they come from Tung Ying Chieh then the first fast form is from the long form and it was based on discussions with Yang Chengfu that was about fajin in the forms. If you are talking the second fast form it is a combination of Yang and Wu/Hao and Wu/Hao comes from Yang and Chen. And the second fast set is really big on Qinna and I have been told Tung Ying Chieh liked Qinna so that is why it is there.

T wrote:I cannot speak of anything from Chen Weiming and I mean no offense to anyone but my sifu was a student of Tung Ying Chieh so I trust what he has told me and to be honest I tend to feel that this is really over thinking the issue. However If you are looking to the Tung family to answer the question then I recommend Tung Kai Ying. He is the only one listed here that trained with Tung Ying Chieh and he later trained with his father Tung Hu Ling

My last on this

Greetings T,

My fellow Taiji-er of Yang style Taijiquan.

I was just doing my best with my limited communication skills to answer Audi’s questions about the Fast Form. In your judgment, my answers seem to be over thought. Maybe they are. But, they are my sincere attempt of answering Audi’s questions. They are strictly my personal view on why I value the Fast Form. And when they would be taught in the learning of Yang Style Taiji.

I pointed to Kai Ying, Zeng Chen and Alex (Kai Ying’s brother and nephew) because they teach their family Fast Form. I believe that any of them can answer Audi’s questions about the use and teaching methods of the Fast Form much better than I can.

As to who is better of the Tung’s to answer Fast Form questions, I, in no way, was trying to answer that. So, I will not engage in that debate.

Peace

Greetings all,
I have stayed out of this discussion due to not really having any great insights into Fast Form.
However something kept niggling at the back of my mind and it was all coming from my time training in the Wu Chien Chuan form as taught by Eddie Wu at his Wu's T'ai Chi Ch'uan Academies. While there I learned what was called the "Wu Family Large Frame Fast Round Form", which was most certainly all of those things.
It had very large framed movements, especially when compared to the small framed "square form", as it was often called at that school, of the Wu Chien Chuan family style. It had fast and slow movements, leaps, stomps, overt fajin and lots of very large, obvious silk reeling movements.
I was taught this form after learning and practicing pretty much every other Wu family form with the exception of their gim form (which I never did get to, unfortunately) and pushing hands. I was taught this form and was expected to be able to perform it to standard before I was taught their sparring.
I was told that it was the "fighting form" and so was taught just before a student graduated to sparring and then free fighting.
I was quite proud of myself that I learned it and was able to perform it to a high enough standard that I was then taught sparring and free fighting in their school.
That said...
I honestly don't know any more about it than that.
I never learned the history of it; who created it and why? That was just not something that I thought to ask anyone at the time.
Reading through this discussion, I keep thinking about that form and I couldn't help but wonder if its origins might be pertinent to this discussion.
Unfortunately, my access to anything "official" about it is absolutely zero. The WCC style Sifu who taught me most of what I learned in their school has passed on and Eddie Wu and I don't really chat...
So I went in search of anything I could find.
And I found this.
The gentleman seems sincere in his statements and I have no reason to doubt him but please read his article and make up your minds on the subject.
I hope this will help further the discussion if nothing else:
http://taiji-europa.eu/tai-chi-taiji/ta ... chi-chuan/

If nothing else, it's another thing to think about.

Bob

One more thing...
I just checked my "library archive", in other words my list of videos, and I do indeed have the video that Eddie Wu produced of the Large Frame Fast Round Form that I learned in his school.
And it is a "video", in that it's on VHS and not a CD.
So...
I will have to drag my VHS player out of storage and hook it up in order to view the tape.
That won't happen quickly as the player is in my storage. I will have to dig for it and I don't know how long that will take.
Fortunately, I happen to know exactly where the tape is located as I had to dig that box out a few months ago to get one of my CD's out.
Why do I mention all of this? Good question!
It's because, as I recall, at the beginning of the tape there is a "history" of the form.
So watching that video may lead me to a fuller history of this form, which will hopefully lead us to a better understanding of the Fast Forms from the Yang lineage.

It's worth a shot, anyway.
There may be nothing on there at all that will be helpful for this discussion, but then again there might.
I'll get to my storage and dig for the player as soon as I can, then I'll watch the video and see what I can find out.
All that said...
If anyone has the CD and can queue it up and watch is easily, please do!
That'll save me some digging.

Bob