Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

I feel that it is more efficient to do the turn after the left leg separation without extending and sweeping the leg. I have practiced with the leg extension, without the leg extension, and with touching the toe of my left foot before making the turn on my weighted right heel. I would like thoughts on this?

Greetings,

I don't know what form you do, but in the received form of Yang taijiquan there is no sweeping or extending of the leg during the turn after Left Separate Feet. Here are Fu Zhongwen's instructions for Turn Body and Kick with Heel:

Movement One: The left foot drops down, with the left knee slightly lifted. Using the right heel as the axis, the body swiftly turns to the left rear. At the same time, the two palms close, collect, and intersect in front of the chest, the left palm on the outside. The two palms face in. The eyes follow the turning of the body and look out evenly.

Movement Two: The two palms separate and open to the left and right. At the same time, the left foot, using the heel, slowly kicks forth to the left, the toes pointing up. The right leg, with the left foot’s kick, gradually stands up, with the right knee remaining slightly bent. The eyes attend to the left palm separating out and look evenly past the left palm to the left.

Important point #2 states: The left leg must follow the turning of the body and draw back in. It may not touch the ground. There must be the prerequisite of “contain the chest and pull up the back.” Do not lean back.

Take care,
Louis

Yang Jun's training Video shows a sweeping leg with the turn after the left separation kick. James Fu does it with no leg sweep as described in his grandfather's book. Tung family places the left foot down behind the right foot before turning. The way that Yang Jun does the movement is very graceful and beautiful to watch. However I feel that turning without the leg sweep is more efficient. I am currently practicing the turn all three ways but prefer doing it without the leg sweep.

wobblyboy wrote:Yang Jun's training Video shows a sweeping leg with the turn after the left separation kick. James Fu does it with no leg sweep as described in his grandfather's book. Tung family places the left foot down behind the right foot before turning...

Yang Jun and James Fu


]
Tung Ying Chieh and Liu Gaoming


Here's a link to a video of Yang Zhenduo's & Fu Zhongwen's
Turn and Kick:
http://youtu.be/3NS3WEBzlY8?t=5m49s

Full video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NS3WEBzlY8

Thanks for posting the videos. I am still playing with and deciding on how I want to do it? I have practiced this turn all four ways. I like doing the turn the way that Jame Fu does it. I think that the way that Yang Jun does it is very elegant, balanced and beautiful to watch. However, I think that the way that Liu Gaoming does it is the simplest and most efficient way. Simply dropping my left foot down by my right knee makes the turn easy, efficient, and stable. Also if you are in grass or other other difficult surface, it is easy to simply place your toe on the ground to support your turn.

Once again, thanks for posting the videos.

Wobblyboy

wobblyboy wrote:On my computer, all of the videos stop before going into the turn from left toe kick to left heel kick.

I have no idea why that happens on your computer.

They are gifs so they just play & repeat.
If they are not repeating then they have not finished loading.

If they don’t advance, click refresh/reload current page.
Or, view using a different browser.

Or, maybe it’s buffering.
(In streaming audio or video from the Internet, buffering refers to downloading a certain amount of data before starting to play the music or movie.)

Here's one answer to your viewing problem, that I can come with right now, is for you to just download them to your computer.
1. Right click on the image.
2. A drop down menu will appear.
3. On that menu Choose save image as.
4. Press save and the image will download to your computer’s download folder.

Personally I would have them download to my desktop so that they are easy to find.

Open the file with your Browser of choice.
(Firefox, Internet Explorer, or Chrome, etc.)

And they should play & repeat smoothly.

If you decide to download the gifs, you have to download each gif separately.

But before doing all of that,
I suggest you just to wait
until, they all load and start to repeat.

Thanks for the reply. I actually have the complete videos on my computer. I have studied all in great detail. It is interesting that when you compare the Yang styles performed by James Fu, Yang Jun, and Tung Hu Ling, that they are all essentially doing the same form with some differences in certain movements. Also the are style differences. Yang Jun is very upright. Tung Hu Ling performs with a crouching style. I have purchased and am currently using Yang Juns video for training. I also really like James Fu's videos.

interesting thread.

We were just working on this yesterday.

We do the turn differently

After the left kick we bring the left leg down past the right leg without touching the floor. Then back up which creates the turn. then just extend left leg for the heal kick.

I am not sure How well I described it.

Wobblyboy,
Yes, there are a great many "differences" in each and every persons form. If you watch Yang Zhen Duo's videos, then watch Yang Jun's videos, you are going to see many "differences" in between their performances.
Most will be very slight, as the transmission from Yang Zhen Duo to Yang Jun is very clear, but there will be things that each does slightly differently from the other.
Watching the forms of different Masters, even those who attended the same school at the same time and learned from the same Master, will show you many points of "difference" between how each person expresses their art.
This is normal, expected and necessary.
Why?
Good question, I'm glad you asked.
Are you built the same way as James Fu? By that I mean, is your body identical to his? No? I didn't think so.
Performing the art in the identical way that he does is an therefor an impossibility because you're different people, with different body shapes.
Do you think the same way Yang Jun does? No? I didn't think so.
Performing the art in the identical way that does in therefor an impossibility because you are different people, with different personalities and ways of thinking about things.
Do you see where this is going?
There is no way for two people to perform any art identically, even if they learned at the exact same time in the exact same place from the exact same Master there will be "differences" in between their performances.
Case in point; me.
For many years, when I first started learning TCC, I did so in a school that my brother also attended.
We learned from the same Sifu, same style, same form, in the same building and at the same time.
We're very similar in height, weight and body shape and we were raised in the same house by the same parents.
Yet our forms were as different as night and day.
He was very precise, very accurate in his movements (still is) and he looked very clean and clear when doing his art.
I, on the other hand, had what could only be called "sloppy" postures. No one would ever call them "clean and clear", in fact I most often heard "looks like mud but it covers the ground" from our teachers when anyone mentioned my form work.
To this day his form work is much more precise and clear than mine will ever be (we're doing different styles now but being sloppy didn't change any with my new style, as several of those who post on this thread can attest ).
The reason for that is mostly in the way we each think, which couldn't be more different.
He is a much more precise person, more dedicated to "getting it right" than I am.
I have a much more sloppy outlook on life, I worry more about "getting it done" without worrying about making it pretty.
Is one "better" than the other?
Not in any way anyone we could ever find.
They're just different, that's all, both are equally valid expressions of the art.

That you're seeing these "differences" in between the Masters shows that you have a keen eye and a focus on the art.
That's good. That will help you in the long run very much.
However, understanding the reasons behind these "differences", why they happen and that they're necessary...
That's even more important.
What we all need to understand is that eventually every student is going to begin to express a "personal style".
I clearly have mine. I call it the "clear as mud but it covers the ground" style in honor of my former teachers who used to tell me that, a lot, and to keep myself from ever starting to think my forms look good (they don't and they're not going to).
The trick now is to find what works for you and then to keep reviewing and refining that, while working with your teachers, to perfect it.
I'm a LONG way from perfecting even my muddy style of movement, I need more practice, but I have learned to go with my strengths and to stop considering them weaknesses.
Of course you want to maintain the standards of your particular style, it's necessary.
However, I believe if you start looking closely at the "standards" of your style you'll find that there's more than a little bit of wiggle room built right into them.
That's to accommodate the "personal style" that each person will eventually settle into.

Hope this helps a bit.

Bob

At Bob
Glad to see your words above. I was going to do a separate post on a similar topic( embrace the differences), but guess that it might not be understood in context.
I make a point of doing my form in many different manners. I feel the postures per se, are an 'ideal middle' , just as one could have fast/slow, close/far, heavy/light, etc with a so called ideal middle point.
All of my training is dictated towards partner work/application. So I practise with being crowded to varying degrees, people moving quickly on attacks, heavy pressure, - and the opposites and try to get all angles distances speeds etc towards both ends of a scale.
Am I still doing tai chi? Not in sense of many for a pretty form. Am I developing balance, power, distancing, timing, fluidity and so on.. I think and hope so. I am pretty confident with what I do, partner wise, as I have been working this yin yang idea for a long time with tons of partners, and know my limitations.

I guess overall I might say I view tai chi as a way of moving. It has to be individualised imo. The 'standard' form is an idealised path beacon for teaching and transmitting standard concept. But in ones personal training the form should start to be very different from person to person. The 'show' version that one presents for judgement/interest/cultural approval etc is a presentation to the masses across the board, and to show a general interpretation of tai chi in my opinion. Individuals should start there and make it their own. Its a great reference to not going so far off the path you lose sight. But everyone might get way more out of it, if they adjust it for their personality, performance, body type, attitude etc.

I honestly believe that the mad adherence to a standard is mistake in current tai chi world. Of course most wont/don't agree. Partly it depends on what you are trying to get out of your own training.

kinda rushed, gotta go, not even time to reread/edit this .. hope the point is clear enough

Sifu990,
A former Master taught me this and I've never found it to be incorrect;
Learning the form to standard (which includes all the TCC principles) will teach anyone 90 percent of the art of TCC.
For achieving the maximum health benefits out of the art that is all that is required.
In order to complete the training for combat use you also then need to learn the other 10% of the art; function.
I learned this as the "90/10 rule" and my students will tell you that I still teach that to this day.
Similarly to what you say in your post, I believe the movements we learn in the form fall directly into the "happy middle ground" of function. If you do the form movements to "standard" and you apply all of the principles of the art as you do them you will learn how to be safely in the middle of this movement based art. This is the 90% that learning form to standard will give you leading you to all of the healthier, kinder, gentler things that are usually touted as TCC excellence... and for good reason.
To learn that other 10% though, for function, that's when the real learning begins.
I can teach just about anyone who is fairly healthy at least a good bit of the 90% of the art that they need for health in roughly two years. If that's all they want out of the art, this is most people by the way and there's not a thing wrong with that, they can pick that up and then go on with the rest of their lives without having to dedicate a whole lot more time or effort into their practice.
When I find one of those students who make it that far I call my time teaching them a rousing success. It's rare. I can count those "success" stories on my fingers and toes and still have a few digits left to go.
When I find a student who goes all the way and learns what I know of the 90% and then continues on to begin the monumental task of learning the little bit I know of the 10% known as "function", I am honestly completely surprised. Thrilled, beyond an doubt, but still very surprised.
I can count those students on the fingers of one hand and still have hold outs.
I suppose that since I am about the lowest level, part time, gumby of an instructor you can find, with very few students, that's about normal.
I imagine a full time Master has many more opportunities to train students in the whole 100% of the art.

To be clear, I do not know 100% of the art and I am not claiming to.
I do not, I need a ton more practice.
I'm not a Master, I've never even played one on television, so I've got a long way to go.
I'm just a guy doing his best to keep up with it all and hoping to help some folks improve their health along the way.

Bob

I have been closely studying the hand form of James Fu and Yang Jun. Although they have different styles, their performance of the form is very similar. The only major functional difference I see is that James Fu makes a strong point that there should be no weight shift to the back leg when turning to single whip after push. Yang Jun shifts weight to back foot and then turns. When James Fu demonstrates this move he indicates that if you shift weight before turning that get trapped and be pushed backward. Any thoughts?

I was watching a video of Fu Zhongwen mentoring a young person practicing the form. He had the person drop their left foot down behind their right knee and then turning with waist after left separation kick going into left heel kick. I like this as it seems to me to be the most efficient and stable way to make this turn. If this method is good enough for Fu Zhongwen, it is good enough for me!

Wobblyboy,
On sitting back or not after the end of Grasp the Birds Tail (Push)...
I find it highly desirable to know both of the methods well.
Each method is correct and each has a purpose.
Each has a range of valid and demonstrable martial applications and understanding both is necessary because each is applied when responding to entirely different circumstances.
It is important to know which of these methods to use while in contact with your opponent of right now, to counter what is actually happening in the moment rather than what you want to be happening in your imagination.
There is a vast and wide world of "what the hell just happened" in between what you've always imagined the result would be against an opponent for any of the movements and what actually happens once you're in contact with someone who is attempting to harm you to the best of his ability.
So it's best, in my personal opinion based on more than a few experiences in real life, not to limit yourself by thinking "this Masters method is correct but that Masters method will never work".
They're both Masters for a reason and neither of them got there by collecting bottle caps. It's probably best to listen to each, learn from them both as each has very valid points to make, and then use what works best for you under the immediate circumstance you find yourself in.
In the long run...
I feel it's best not to learn the form as if there is only one single best way to use a posture, or even a single piece of a posture. There are a vast number of possible applications for each and every tiny movement in all the traditional forms.
Please don't limit yourself to just one or two martial applications for anything you learn, no matter how small the movement, or to one single Master's point of view for everything.
Your understanding of each and every movement will change repeatedly over time and it's your understanding that, in the end, is the only important one for you.
Keep an open mind, learn as much as you can from everyone (not just Masters, by the way) and use what works for you when you need it.

Bob

Wobblyboy,
That may be the most efficient and stable way for you to make that turn.
It's not for me.
I can use that method and even do it well, however it's not my "go to" method when making this turn.
Again, I practice a variety of methods for making this turn so that I know as many as I can possibly learn as well as I can learn them.
Like most people I have a favorite method but as I mentioned in my previous post I do not limit myself to any single method for any movement.
When a student asks me the inevitable question: "Should I touch my toe down or keep it in the air after I make this turn?" my answer is always the same.
"Yes."

Bob