Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

This is a really nice video on Youtube that I am going to share. It is great in two very important aspects:

1. It has what sounds like Yang Zhendou calling out the names in Chinese.
2. the form is performed slow at a pace of about 26-28 minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40k4Z0OJ-bI

What does that timing have anything to do with it?

Well from a TCM standpoint , in one of the oldest texts, the "Huang Di Nei Jing" or "Yellow Emperor Classic on Internal medicine" when the pulses and qi circulation is talked about, it is said it takes approx. 26 to 28 minutes for qi to circulate through the 12 regular channels of acupuncture. That is why the better doctors always do 30 minute acupuncture treatments. Best doctors will do 30 minutes on front of body and 30 minutes on the back of body. 20 minutes is not enough, leave a doctor and go look for someone better if they do 20 min. treatments.

There is another master who thinks that it is OK to do the form in 20 minutes, but recommends that you do the long form 3x in a row for a total of one hour of long form training. That means you get two rounds of Qi circulation through the 12 channels and deeply develops hua jin. (according to Fu Zhongwen).

Greetings!
Here is my cut on Tai Ji Quan. Let's not be obfuscated TCM into Tai Ji Quan. The channels of acupuncture are stimulated the central nerve system(CNS) by external means. In Tai Ji Quan, the muscles are stimulated by the slow movements. As a result, it activate the muscle cells to speed up the rate of metabolism or cell respiration. Cell respiration is to generate the physical body strength, Biochemically know as ATP.

From your standpoint, the duration in using the needles to stimulate the acupuncture point does not have the same effect to the muscles as the slow movements in Tai Ji Quan. In other words, the CNS and muscles are two separated entities. Thus they cannot be assumed that acupuncture treatment is coincided with the practice of Tai Ji.

In regard to the duration of the Tai Chi practice, setting a limited time for the practice is not a good idea. IMO The duration should be natural in accord with one's present physical ability or the reached level of the practitioner from past experience. The duration will be increased, in the future, from one's diligent daily practice. It is because an ordinary body has been transformed to a Tai Ji body. For that being said, the ordinary muscles had become twitchy muscles by the cell respiration process.

I can see your point. Which reminds me of " harmonize the external with the internal. My point is taijiquan and qigong is acupuncture without the needles.

I have noticed that are few pointers, in the video, are worth mentioning:
1. His single whip, the right hand was not bent at 8:37, 14:48 and 19:44.
2. The "push hand" after the left/right grasp sparrow's tail, he did not tilt his left foot
3. His back leg is always straight in all his moves.
4. He did not turn his head toward the left/right in doing the "repulse monkey".
5. His left foot was solid on the ground while doing the "white crane spreads it wings". The left foot should have one third of the sole touching the ground.

These pointers had indicated to me that the uniqueness of the Yang style was totally neglected.

my response is there:

ChiDragon wrote:I have noticed that are few pointers, in the video, are worth mentioning:
1. His single whip, the right hand was not bent at 8:37, 14:48 and 19:44.

Do you mean like in other forms like 24 or 37 Short form? The Yang family way is straight and slightly up as if a ball could roll down the arm.

2. The "push hand" after the left/right grasp sparrow's tail, he did not tilt his left foot.

Not quite sure why he does it that way, like I've seen other people do it. his own stylistic interpretation i suppose.

3. His back leg is always straight in all his moves.

It is not 'Locked', it appears straight, i think the saying is "Bent seeking the straight".

4. He did not turn his head toward the left/right in doing the "repulse monkey".

That is a 24 form thing. I was taught , the opponent is in front of you, don't turn your head away from them!

5. His left foot was solid on the ground while doing the "white crane spreads it wings". The left foot should have one third of the sole touching the ground.

Oddly it does look flat. Personally, as long as you can lift up foot and be balanced and kick the opponent with that lead foot, it is ok with me.

These pointers had indicated to me that the uniqueness of the Yang style was totally neglected.

I never do the same form twice. i try to be as perfect as possible, but it really depends on what Yang Jun has in mind and what he wants to express. The form I do in class and ranking for exampe, is not the form i do on my own.

The correct way of Repulse mokey at 1:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib2SNVjlbgQ

It was understood that doesn't matter which form one is practicing, turning the head left/right will prevent from having a stiff neck throughout the whole practice. However, the head may not be turned during combat when it is applicable.

ChiDragon wrote:The correct way of Repulse mokey at 1:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib2SNVjlbgQ

The correct way???

No one uses a copy to judge the original.

How do you tell if a copy has imperfections?
You use the Original to judge the copy.

The 24 form is a shorten version of the Yang Long Form.

That guys form is nice.
It's very nice for a 24 form.

But if you were to view his 24 form using the Yang Family Taiji form as the standard --
His 24 form falls short in the key areas of Yang Family Taiji Footwork, Body method, Hands & Timing.

BBTrip wrote:

ChiDragon wrote:The correct way of Repulse mokey at 1:40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ib2SNVjlbgQ

The correct way???

No one uses a copy to judge the original.

How do you tell if a copy has imperfections?
You use the Original to judge the copy.

The 24 form is a shorten version of the Yang Long Form.

That guys form is nice.
It's very nice for a 24 form.

But if you were to view his 24 form using the Yang Family Taiji form as the standard --
His 24 form falls short in the key areas of Yang Family Taiji Footwork, Body method, Hands & Timing.

Greetings! I am glad you have come forward for the challenge. Yes, there are many versions of copies from the original have been improved as the time goes by. However, despite to the variation of the arm and leg movements, turning the head toward left/right is still holds true for the original of the "repulse monkey".

Here is one of the oldest Yang style from the Dong(董) family:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTMxNzQ0ODgw.html
The repulse monkey with the head turning to left/right was shown at 9:09.
Please note his footwork, he turns his foot on the heel. I have seen most of the modern versions turning the foot with the ball of the foot. IMO turning the foot on the heel gives me a better sense of balance.

Greetings ChiDragon,

You're making absolute statements about Yang style Taiji that seem to be just your personal opinion.
An opinion that is simply not supported by Facts.

There is no issue with the gaze of Yang Jun when he performs Repulse Monkey.

Yes, In Yang style your gaze can be to the rear hand then forward when executing Repulse Monkey.
But it is also true that there is variation in the gaze of Repulse Monkey in Traditional Yang Style.

ChiDragon wrote:... However, despite to the variation of the arm and leg movements, turning the head toward left/right is still holds true for the original of the "repulse monkey".

Here is one of the oldest Yang style from the Dong(董) family:
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTMxNzQ0ODgw.html
The repulse monkey with the head turning to left/right was shown at 9:09...

Indeed, video of Tung Ying Chieh is a great example!
He was a long time disciple of Yang Cheng Fu, who also studied with elder members of the Yang Family.
He passes down an unbroken line of Yang style Taiji.

However, you have selectively choosen a portion of the video that supports your belief only.
But you omit Tung's Repulse Monkey earlier in the video (at 2:45 mark) that shows his head not always turning left and right.

See for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CQlB9Uty8o

I believe by turning the head to left/right, in the "repulse monkey", has the purpose for exercising the waist, the upper torso and the neck and broaden the eyes vision. If the head wasn't turn, it only allows to exercise the arms and legs.

The reason some people had omitted to turn the head was because they are in advanced level such as fast Tai Ji. In the basic slow forms, the distance between the arms and legs are farther apart. In fast Tai Ji, it has to move fast. Therefore, the distance has be cutted short and skip some of the basic moves. Especial the practitioners in the upper level, they have many options to alter the moves.

IMMHO I believe that all beginners should be taught with all the fundamental basic moves. Otherwise, some of the moves will be lost among the younger generation of practitioners.

ChiDragon wrote:See for yourself.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CQlB9Uty8o

Are you kidding???

He seems like a very nice person.
But, his Taiji has issues

One of the issues:
He subtly tries to hide the fact that during stepping he is having trouble with stability.
Balance is a Taiji basic. Right?

But if you can’t see that, at least hold him to your own footwork standard.

ChiDragon wrote: ...Please note his footwork, he turns his foot on the heel. I have seen most of the modern versions turning the foot with the ball of the foot. IMO turning the foot on the heel gives me a better sense of balance.

The form itself is fine. He may have problems with the form. Thus he needs more practice. That's all.

Actually, I am not sure he is a Tai Ji practitioner. He was only suggesting us to use the "repulse monkey" form to cure the periostitis underneath the foot. I do admit that he had exaggerated a little in his movements by looking too far back.

BTW I was using his video to show how the "repulse monkey" is exercising all the body parts.

Re: Turning the head in Taijiquan

I think that the “correctness” of this depends on the focus or emphasis of ones training at the time.
I think that ALL of the following could be considered as being correct, depending on the situation and objectives:

A) Head turning from side to side to loosen the neck [flexibility/health concerns]
B) Keeping the nose always vertically above the navel; not turning the neck [keeps the head centered and aligned with the torso; develops peripheral awareness since the positions of the hands still need to be within visual awareness even when they are towards the sides]
C) Head always facing towards where the opponent is, or would be for an imaginary opponent during solo practice [martial utility/emphasis/usage]
D) Always focusing in the direction of the primary hand [focusing/leading the energy into and beyond the hand applying the principle energy of the technique; helping intent]
E) Others?

To me, saying only one way is “correct” indicates ones biases and lack of general applicability (ability to apply Taijiquan in alternative contexts). It seems to me to be quite arrogant, and indicates a possibly incomplete (or inflexible/dogmatic) understanding of the art of Taijiquan. What is correct for one school is, of course, correct for those practitioners, but could be wrong in other contexts. Taijiquan is a spectrum where many approaches can all be considered as being correct (or all being wrong in other contexts or when working on other goals).

mls_72 wrote: 2. The "push hand" after the left/right grasp sparrow's tail, he did not tilt his left foot.

Not quite sure why he does it that way, like I've seen other people do it. his own stylistic interpretation i suppose.

5. His left foot was solid on the ground while doing the "white crane spreads it wings". The left foot should have one third of the sole touching the ground.

Oddly it does look flat. Personally, as long as you can lift up foot and be balanced and kick the opponent with that lead foot, it is ok with me.

Some people may not be aware of this. Both feet are solid on the ground, at this point, which violates the "double-weighted" rule. The knowledgeable masters called this gesture is a common disease in Tai Ji Quan practice.

Greetings all,

Let’s keep a respectful tone toward anyone we single out by name or anyone we refer to on videotape. On this forum, we want to learn from each other and advance Tai Chi as a whole and not argue about whose form or Tai Chi is best in a way that most advanced masters do not themselves do. If you don’t know why someone does what they do, the best thing to do is to ask them, one of their students, or someone well acquainted with their understanding. It is not really appropriate to say or imply that someone’s practice is incorrect if you are not actually sure what they are trying to do and why.

This is a really nice video on Youtube that I am going to share. It is great in two very important aspects:

1. It has what sounds like Yang Zhendou calling out the names in Chinese.

Yes, that is Grandmaster Yang Zhenduo. I think there used to be a file or CD of him calling out the form names on the website, but I can no longer find it.

You have an interesting idea about the form length, but I cannot confirm or refute it. I feel best doing the form in about 26 minutes, but I think that is simply because of the speed I first learned.

I have noticed that are few pointers, in the video, are worth mentioning:
1. His single whip, the right hand was not bent at 8:37, 14:48 and 19:44.

It looks clear to me that his hand/wrist is bent. Are you referring to his elbow instead? If so, the straightness of right his arm is deliberate and necessary for the way we want the energy to flow. It is still not locked. Practitioners emphasizing a different application or a different training method might, of course, do it differently.

We want the connection between the arms to be strong and in somewhat opposing directions. One way we sometimes test this is to grab the person by the right wrist and the outside of the right hand and shake their torso vigorously in between by these two points. It is not possible to succeed at this if the right elbow is bent to a large degree.


You can also try this application. Use your left hand to pull your partner’s right wrist to your left and toward your rear. Simultaneously, use a pressing energy (i.e., an4 jin4) with your right forearm and entire right arm to stick to, press on, and guide your partner to your left rear. If they resist, you want to return the energy back to them with your right arm or hand. You cannot punch or use a Pressing (An4) palm, because of the upward energy coming from their arm. For the same reason you cannot punch effectively, particularly with your right arm so extended already. What you can do roll your right wrist forward to form the hook hand and use your partner’s upward energy to strike at their throat. If you do not extend the arm somewhat straight in this application, your wrist will not have enough energy.

2. The ["push hand" after the left/right grasp sparrow's tail, he did not tilt his left foot

We do not use the terminology “left/right” in connection with Grasp Sparrow’s Tail, and so I do not know what you are referring to and cannot explain our practice.

3. His back leg is always straight in all his moves.

One part of our style requirements is to make the postures large and open. This means we want to extend the back leg quite a bit, though without locking it. We call this “natural(ly) straight.” We would consider a deliberate bend in the back knee to be consistent with good Tai Chi principles, but not consistent with our particular style requirements and training method.

4. He did not turn his head toward the left/right in doing the "repulse monkey".

We do turn the head in Brush Knee in similar circumstances, but not in Repulse Monkey. This is because whether or not we turn the head is part of our requirements for the gaze. Brush Knee and Repulse Monkey show different applications and so require different treatment for the gaze. In Brush Right Knee we transfer our gaze sequentially from the left “Rollback” to the right-hand arm or leg capture. In Repulse Monkey, we keep our gaze on the grab being performed by the front hand.

I believe by turning the head to left/right, in the "repulse monkey", has the purpose for exercising the waist, the upper torso and the neck and broaden the eyes vision. If the head wasn't turn, it only allows to exercise the arms and legs.

A) Head turning from side to side to loosen the neck [flexibility/health concerns]

Even though the head does not turn much, the body turns quite a bit under it. As a result, I see no issue at all with neck flexibility or waist movement.

As for broadness of vision, our doctrines for the gaze go beyond just the direction you look. We can say that there should be some attention on the complete surroundings through 360 degrees. As a result, the gaze should also be somewhat far, and certainly beyond a specific contact point. Even though the gaze should take in all 360 degrees, it needs to focus primarily on one section. Depending on the posture and circumstances, you should use include in your gaze up to four things: the orientation of your head, the orientation of your eyes, the use of the corner of your eyes, and the use of your ears and mental focus. For instance, in the spins, your mental attention sometimes needs to be directly behind you and you can only use your ears and mind to focus. In Brush Knee, your gaze must move “rapidly” back and forth and so your eyes will cover more ground than your head.

5. His left foot was solid on the ground while doing the "white crane spreads it wings". The left foot should have one-third of the sole touching the ground.

I have never seen Master Yang do this and don’t believe he was doing it in this case. Our performance of this move requires us to extend the left leg far forward and then to touch the ball of the foot to the ground. Then, as we settle into the “Settling point” (ding4 shi4) of the posture, we bring significant weight onto the left foot and bend the angle of the left ankle and knee slightly to accept it. This can bring the sole of the left foot quite close to the ground, but it should be clear that the energy point remains in the ball of the foot and no weight goes to the sole of the foot

Some people may not be aware of this. Both feet are solid on the ground, at this point, which violates the "double-weighted" rule. The knowledgeable masters called this gesture is a common disease in Tai Ji Quan practice.

I think we have a different view of what it means to be “double-weighted.” Both feet are “solid” on the ground at the end of Repulse Monkey, but we would not call that posture “double-weighted.” Even the end of Cross Hands, when the legs have equal weight, we would not call “double-weighted.”

Take care,
Audi