Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

Exists two ways of shifting the body weight when we advancing or turning:
1. First turn and after shift the body weight (pivot on the full leg) - [some call it traditional way]
2. Firs shift the body weight and after turn (pivot on the empty leg) - [some call it standard way]
OK, I understand that one should not sit back on the rear leg before advancing (Grasp the Sparow's Tail, Brush Knee with Twist Step, Deflect Parry and Punch, Strike Down, Kick with Heel, Wild Horse Parts Mane, Golden Cock), but what is correct in turning (Push -> Single Whip, Cross Hands, Turn Body and Strike, Cross Legs, Single Whip -> Wave hands, Hit the Tiger, Single Whip -> Wild Horse Parts Mane, Single Whip -> Fair Lady, Fair Lady)?
What is correct? First turn and then shifting the weight or inversely?

Each method allows for different applications. Perhaps this is not an 'either/or' question but different options which make sense in different situations. Many teachers favor showing one way in their form. This does not negate the value of the other.

Good question, Rogira.

One that I would also appreciate some feedback on...

I second your question...What IS the proper order of turning and shifting in those various movements?

Delicate distinctions.

Thank you,
Best regards,
Psalchemist.

The question here shouldn't be "which way is proper for turning?". The question here, in my opinion anyway, should be "when do I use one instead of the other?".
As Jerry points out, both are valid turns. You should learn not only both of these types of turns, but when to use them and why.
Ask you instructor to demonstrate not only the turns, but when and why to use them. It really is one of those things that is easier to demonstrate than to explain.

rogira,

Traditional and standard are relative but compared to what? They may be synonomous in that standard ususlly refers to the Beijing Sports Institute method (let us forget about sitting back on pivoting).

Traditional may be dubious unless you study with a family style (read lineage) that may not/or may do things in a didactic manner. Use may also indicate whether you pivot first then apply a technique. If you are doing form only, it may be difficult.

Fast forward to moving push hands where you just step out of way (again depending on whose push hands method?problematic-I know) as opposed to form pivition to move from one posture to another.

Turning and shifting may happen at same time.

Greetings psalchemist and All,

Like Jerry said, in application whether you pivot with or without weight will depend - on what's going on and what you want to do. Some schools teach only one kind of pivot. Some schools teaches all 16 possibilities.

A static pivot is where the weight is not changing during the pivot, a dynamic pivot is where the weight shifts during the pivot.

Weighted dynamic outward right pivot: Grasping the Sparrow's Tail to the Right
Weighted static outward right pivot: Brush Knee Right
Weighted dynamic inward right pivot: From 4th Shuttle to Grasping Sparrow's Tail to the Right
Weighted static inward right pivot: From Separation of the Left Foot to Right Heel Kick

Unweighted dynamic outward right pivot: White Snake Sicks out his Tongue to Right Heel Kick
Unweighted static outward right pivot: Snake Creeps Down
Unweighted dynamic inward right pivot: Single Whip
Unweighted static inward right pivot: Repulse the Monkey Right (straighten the foot)

Weighted dynamic outward left pivot: From Hit the Tiger Right to Right Heel Kick
Weighted static outward left pivot: Drawing Water from the Well
Weighted dynamic inward left pivot: From Single Whip to First Shuttle
Weighted static inward left pivot: From Single Whip to Cloud Hands

Unweighted dynamic outward left pivot: Snake Creeps down right before shifting weight forward
Unweighted static outward left pivot: Turn Step Left (in the air) before Punch Under Elbow
Unweighted dynamic inward left pivot: Separation of the Right Foot to Separation of the Left Foot
Unweighted static inward left pivot: Repulse the Monkey Left (straighten the foot)

I hope you enjoy this as an exploration.

David J

Very good David!

Excellent presentation.
Such a methodical and organized mind!

Explore and experiment I will for certain.

Thank you for your efforts.

Take care,
Psalchemist.

P.S. I note an unknown posture name..."Drawing water from the well"?...Are you familiar with the Yang family style equivalent?

[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 12-11-2003).]

HI psalchemist,

Sorry I missed this when you posted it.

You wrote, > P.S. I note an unknown posture name..."Drawing water from the well"?...Are you familiar with the Yang family style equivalent? <

Other names include 'Grasping the Handle of the Hammer and Striking the Gong,' and 'Step (up), Parry and Punch.'

The 'Drawing the Water from the Well' part would be between 'Grasping the Handle of the Hammer...' part which is making a fist, and before 'Striking the Gong,' part. Once the fist is made, it makes a circular movement down then up to the left like dunking a bucket into water, and pulling it out.

It denotes gathering chi.

I hope this is clear.

David J

The way I see it, both methods are correct. The question would be, which one is better for me, according to the end result I want to achieve?

I would advise to experiment with both, not only in form practice but also in push hands and applications, to see how it "feels".

I actually practice tardional yang style by using the "traditional way" (first turn, then shift), but I aldo like to do simplified forms like 24 form every once in a while, and I use the other way, which feels cool too!

I've seen experienced teachers dempstrate coherent applications using both, and that to me is the main thing: if the funcionality can be proven...why not to try it!

Hello David,

Thanks for addressing this query, I had long put the idea aside, but regardless, had still not discovered another reference to "Drawing water from the well" anywhere, yet.
I appreciate your response, input and confirmation.
======================================

[..."Drawing water from the well
[Other names include
['Grasping the Handle of the Hammer and Striking the Gong,'
['Step (up), Parry and Punch.'
======================================

<<The 'Drawing the Water from the Well' part would be between 'Grasping the Handle of the Hammer...' part which is making a fist, and before 'Striking the Gong,' part. Once the fist is made, it makes a circular movement down then up to the left like dunking a bucket into water, and pulling it out.>>DavidJ

Very interesting information.
It certainly creates excellent imagery for intentional development purposes.

I do enjoy the way the Chinese expression seems to flourish in vivid striking imagery.
======================================

<<It denotes gathering chi.>>DavidJ

This agrees with my logic perfectly, David, thanks.

Best regards,
Psalchemist.
===================

Also, perhaps addressing a player knowledgable in Chinese, I am curious as to the meaning, if any, of the name "Huizong" from the Emperor Huizong of the Song Dynasty in the 12th century. How would this name be translated?...Tiger/something?

Regards,
Psalchemist.


[This message has been edited by psalchemist (edited 05-19-2004).]