Pushing a group

aikido-jo · Post by **aikido-jo** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 3:50 pm

Hello, can I first say how much I am enjoying posting my questions here. I feel very confident of all advice that I recieve.

My new query is this:

I was recently at my class (I have only been going for a few weeks). when we started doing chi exercises. However, I was completely confused with one of the exercises that we were given. I am afraid to confront my instructor with this as I in no way wish to seem disrespectful.

Six or seven of us stood in a line, one behind the other. Then the one at the front was told to turn round and face the line.
He/she then had to hold is hands to the opposing persons dantien (without touching) and use his chi to push the entire line backwards.

Fine, but my problems lie with the fact that:

The class is mainly based (because of the nature of tai chi classes these days, it seems) of older women. These people, as well as being naieve (not sure how to spell naieve!!) also like to egg each other on by just falling backwards whether they feel anything or not. They all want to believe so bad that they seem to pretend that they are being pushed back, not wanting to upset the poor person trying to force the line back without contact.

Second, a lot of us, (especially me probably) are yet to feel the sensation of chi, and as far as I am aware, none of them know what jing is, admitedly, I am a newby with this concept.

Third, in my opinion, and again I meen no disrespect, it would take a great deal of practice to generate enough jing to push ONE person back WITH contact. I am sorry, but I just feel the concept of trying to push back a full line of people with out any contact, with no practice in chi/jing transfer as ludicruce!

It would surely take a master of the highest caliber to be able to possess the energy to be able to achieve this feet properly!

Your comments?.....

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:45 pm

Greetings,

Regarding: “They all want to believe so bad that they seem to pretend that they are being pushed back, not wanting to upset the poor person trying to force the line back without contact.”

This pretty much leaves me cold. This sounds like faith-based practice, with little practical value. I may be overly-hasty in my reaction, but I just don’t have much patience for this sort of thing. Why waste valuable time on pretending and believing when you could be developing genuine taijiquan skills? This is just my personal impression.

Take care,
Louis

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 5:10 pm

Pushing a line of people who are each solidly connected (each having their palms on the back of the next) is not as hard as it sounds. Once you get one moving the others tend to fall like dominos. I am talking here about pushing the head of the line with one's hands, ie making physical contact. As to pushing without contact, I have no experience of that and don't like to comment. Not understanding it myself or knowing the point of it I would not ask students to do that.

tccstudent_usa · Post by **tccstudent_usa** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 6:21 pm

That sounds like a suspect school. It might be cool for the old ladies to get up and out of the house; nothing wrong with that, but for someone who is interested in authentic/traditional tai chi chuan training it is far off the mark.

chris · Post by **chris** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:12 pm

Firstly, you are probably encountering a combination of sensitivity and make-believe. If you have been doing Aikido, you should be accustomed to this!

Until you've developed your own sensitivity, it is impossible to distinguish one from the other.

It is not disrespectful to ask about the purpose of this exercise. It would, however, be foolish to dismiss it before asking.

Secondly and in my humble opinion, you do not need a concept of qi or jing, any more than you need a concept of water before you can splash in it.

A teacher with concepts can show you concepts. A teacher with skills can show you skills. Learning concepts does not grant you skills.

Thirdly, you don't need "qi and jing development" to push someone out; strong legs will do. The kind of exercise you describe is more practically useful for the listener than for the pusher.

-----
Chris
Martial Development

bamboo leaf · Post by **bamboo leaf** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:12 am

(Second, a lot of us, (especially me probably) are yet to feel the sensation of chi, and as far as I am aware, none of them know what jing is, admitedly, I am a newby with this concept.
Third, in my opinion, and again I meen no disrespect, it would take a great deal of practice to generate enough jing to push ONE person back WITH contact. I am sorry, but I just feel the concept of trying to push back a full line of people with out any contact, with no practice in chi/jing transfer as ludicruce!)

So if you have yet to experince qi, and do not understand jing then how do you know how much jin it would take? How do you know what the nature of inner jin is? If there are any questions they should be directed to your teacher first. This is out of respect for him or her. If the teacher either can not answer or you feel something is lacking then find another teacher.

bamboo leaf · Post by **bamboo leaf** » Sat Sep 23, 2006 2:35 am

(They all want to believe so bad that they seem to pretend that they are being pushed back, not wanting to upset the poor person trying to force the line back without contact.)

they want, they seem. But not what you felt. Maybe they are feeling something or not, since you do not it matters little in your own practice.

[This message has been edited by bamboo leaf (edited 09-22-2006).]

Audi · Post by **Audi** » Thu Sep 28, 2006 12:25 am

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Third, in my opinion, and again I meen no disrespect, it would take a great deal of practice to generate enough jing to push ONE person back WITH contact. I am sorry, but I just feel the concept of trying to push back a full line of people with out any contact, with no practice in chi/jing transfer as ludicruce!</font>

In studying Taijiquan, I think it is important to know when to trust your teacher and not yourself; however, I also think it is important to know when to trust yourself and not your teacher. From what you describe, I would trust your instincts about what you are seeing.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Second, a lot of us, (especially me probably) are yet to feel the sensation of chi, and as far as I am aware, none of them know what jing is, admitedly, I am a newby with this concept.</font>

I think the issue is not with your sensitivity, but with your knowledge or your teacher's knowledge. Although many of my fellow posters seem to disagree with me, I think Qi is a very ordinary thing, like "rooting" or "balance."

For me, talking about Qi is like talking about the night sky. Although some aspects of Qi theory and astronomy are extraordinarily complex, this does not mean that Qi or the sky are mysterious in and of themselves; nor are they only for experts to consider.

Some approaches to Taijiquan focus heavily on Qi, but many do not, treating Qi circulation almost as one does blood circulation or respiration. You do not need to be a yoga adept in order to breathe deeply or a Qi Gong master to sink your Qi.

If you do not know how to sink your Qi, I would assert it is merely because you have not yet found someone who could give you a five to fifteen minute lesson on how to do so.

aikido-jo · Post by **aikido-jo** » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:42 am

Many thanks to all of you for your reples. I have put a lot of thought into everything you all have said, but I think the most helpful thing came from chris:

'The kind of exercise you describe is more practically useful for the listener than for the pusher.'

This now makes a lot of sense to me. As although I am not going to be able to properly push that group over for a long time, I think it may still be possible to listen to 'myself' and see if I can find the intent coming from the pusher.

Does this make sense?

Thank you all for your help, as usual I am all the more better for it!

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:32 am

[This message has been edited by yslim (edited 10-25-2006).]

shugdenla · Post by **shugdenla** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:34 pm

aikido,

Many people treat the sensation of qi as special and as a result give it to much attention and degrade "sung" (postural!relaxation) or just letting go. The master being pushed by ten people may be seen as a kind or circus technique because it gives the impression that the master possess qi and the students do not. In reality we all possess qi.

To my undertstanding, qi could be seen as a state of being. If you want to develop it, the best thing is to do zhanzhuang since it is part of developing shen and gong though lian gong (basic exercise foundation).

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:50 pm

Hi Jerry Karin

What had I done wrong here? I was try to reply to Jo with one of my class experience to his post. After I clicked on submit reply
all thing seen to be ok. with a note from the BB saying some thing like' thank me for the post and need to creat a new page...etc.
I did not read the whole note as it went off too fast for my sleepy eye, So I close my laptop and went to bed. I check the post today and found only the quote from Jo without my reply?! Please tell me what I did wrong? Do I have to rewrite the whole thing again? If that is the case, hey Jo can I do it after the new year?

And thank you very much to re-posted something what I want to print out from Bammoo Leaf's post that he had removed before I have a chance.

Have a good taiji day
yslim

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:58 pm

Oh gee, sorry there. Not really sure what happened. Possibly if you set your browser to 'offline' mode and look thru your history you might be able to find the stuff you typed in. If not I'm afraid you'll have to edit the post and retype what you had. Oh dear. Let me know if it misbehaves.

yslim · Post by **yslim** » Thu Oct 26, 2006 2:10 am

Hi Jerry Karin

I am please because I learn something new!
How to 'edited' my own post. (I had to go back there three times and finally the lightbulb has lighted my yi.)

Many thanks
yslim