Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Bottom line if no chanssujin is manifested (externally or internally) then the form, regardless of expression will be 'dead', as it were.</font>

I am always curious whan the term chansijin is used to describe Yang Style. For Yang Stylists who consider it a key concept for their practice, what does it mean and why is it important?

How does it manifest itself externally in postures such as the Opening Posture, Push, and the Preparation Posture? If there is no external manifestation, how do you "Match up internal and external" as required by the Ten Essentials?

Do you "spiral" the Dantian? If so, how do you "time" your spirals?

Do you "spiral" your hips as you step? If not, why is this an exception?

I should clarify that I have received a fair amount of instruction from Yang Stylists for whom chansijin was an important practice concept; however, they were more interested in "Taijiquan" as a whole than in any particular distinctiveness "Yang Style" might have to offer. As a result, what I learned aboutchansijin was basically identical to the Chen Style approach, but does not seem to match what I have read or seen from the Yang family.

Audi,

Excellent point. Most of wjhat I know of Chanssujin also comes from Chen style. It seems that most Yang style rarely mentions it and when I see Yang stylists do taijiquan, no evidence of any silk reeling is apparent in execution! therfore no qi'na or shuaijiao application.

After qishi (hands raised and coming down-about 1/4 to 1/3) the waist moves right (beginning of lower waist/hip/kua rotation to the right with hands as if flicking/parrying then left foot steps out to left pung, then transition to left carrying ball, then right foot stepping forward and transition to right pung (potential straight diagonal flying) into the grasp sparrows tail. Difficult to describe but hope I did a fair job.

Chanssujin also is in step up, transition to crane spreads wings as waist rotates right then left and transition into brush knee into strum pipa.

I dont spiral anything. Waist rotation is apparent in amost movements as opposed to the sticking out of the hands in a pre-arranged sequence or posture.
My teacher taught to have movement from lower dantian (lower abdomen) as this helps massage the internal organs.
The timing is more posture driven, e.g. lau xi ao bu (left or right) one moves to right to go left and left to go right as if parrying (pushing away) other either at elbow or ribs then transition to brushing knee/hand of opther and foward pushing (final positioning).

When you begin the form you rotate arms moving from palms facing hips to facing backwards. This is forward silk reeling. On a push, palms go from facing somewhat toward center to facing forward. This is also forward reeling with a feeling of peng. These are the exceptional moves with relatively little rotation. Most have a lot. Without rotating arms most moves become two-dimensional (ie in a single plane), flat, lifeless and disconnected from the rest of the body.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 02-26-2006).]

There is a nice article by a student of Li Ya Xuan 'Talking about Jing' translated by Peter Lim. The spirals get a mention in there:

Saying "Taiji is peng jing, movement goes in spirals", is even less accurate. How can Taijiquan be totally explained by peng jing! If we say that Taijiquan is sinking jing (chen jing), that is also a way to get a taste of it; if we way it is sticky jing (nien jing), we see that it is not necessary wrong either. Spiraling is specifically guided by a continuous rounded shape, only if we say Taijiquan goes by different kinds of curves, and also in straight lines, then we are closer to the truth.

In much of the Chen style I have seen the spiralling has been made the biggest part.

I think chansijin is simply the body being strung together. Having the body as one qi, as YCF put it.


[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 02-27-2006).]

Taiji is seldom linear. Even a move like push, which at first glance seems linear, is actually shaped like the curves in the taiji diagram. I have heard Yang Zhenduo mention this.

Seek the straight in the curve - but we digress

[This message has been edited by Anderzander (edited 02-27-2006).]

Can we say Yang style lacks silk reeling? No. Does it emphasize it to the same extent as Chen style? No. As far as dantian rotation and so on, Yang style does not advocate this type of thing, at least for non-'indoor' students, preferring instead a kind of naturalism wherein one lets the body and the unconscious mind take care of things like that.

Before someone asks, I am not saying indoor students do dantian rotation, only that I don't know, not being an indoor student.

Greetings Anderzander and All,

Re: “I think chansijin is simply the body being strung together.”

Aruguably, this would refer, not to chansi (reeling silk), but to chousi (drawing silk). Some taiji authorities claim that these are both the same thing, but some say that they are not. Wu Tunan was one authority who argued that chansi and chansijin were part of the Chen tradition, but that these terms have no early textual support in the Yang tradition. Wu pointed out that the conspicuous mention of “drawing silk” in the Yang corpus is the line in the Mental Elucidation of the Thirteen Shi: “mobilize jin as though drawing silk” (yun jin ru chousi), and that it is clearly a metaphor. The terms chansi and chansijin, on the other hand, have to do with specific practices in the Chen tradition, and likely made their first textual appearance in Chen Xin’s book written in the early 1900s.

I translated Wu Tunan’s comments about this in the “Metaphors” thread a few years ago. I suppose one could say that the inclination to say that chansi and chousi are the same thing is an accomodationist viewpoint, while Wu Tunan was more inclined to a strict evidentiary approach.

Take care,
Louis

顾留馨 Gu Liuxin article on this subject:

http://www.wushush.cn/rdzt/study%20way/cansijin.htm

Greetings Jerry,

Cool find! I look forward to reading Gu's essay. I've printed it out.

--Louis

He plunks for chansi and chousi (and mahua jing too) being the same. Worth reading. I have to adjust text size up on browser to be able to read it.

Would either of you be so kind as to post an English summary of the text?

However brief, I'm certain it would be interesting...

Here is the link Louis referred to : http://www.yangfamilytaichi.com/ubb/For ... 00025.html

OK, I will see if I can knock something out in the next couple days.

Greetings All,

Regarding “chansijin is simply the body being strung together” I think "strung together" is a part of chansi jin attributes, but the word "simply" is indeed arguable. "Reeling silk" has anther important characteristic - it's a way to generate and emit power. In this sense "chansi" is a type of jin, like peng, lie and the six others. But "chousi jin", to me, is more like simply a saying about how one should lead/move jin. So "chousi" (drawing silk) is not a type of jin, it is a way of moving it.

Chansi jin – "reeling silk" jin or reeling type jin
Chousi jin – drawing jin like silk or drawing of a jin

However "reeling silk" is also a way of moving jin (Chen Xin wrote - "Taiji quan is the methods of reeling silk"), and as ways of moving jin "reeling" and "drawing" share similarities.

My point of view is somewhat accordant with master Li Jingwu's way of looking at this question in Gu's article. As he said – "chansi jin is used for controlling an opponent". I.e. "chansi jin" as a phrase may express the martial technique. This is not applicable to the phrase "chousi jin" to the same extent. This all is just my opinion.


I think these pictures from Chen Xin's book illustrate "body being strung together" characteristic of chansi jin:









[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 02-28-2006).]