Hello,
A question I've been wondering about is whether it is possible to fa jing without being rooted. For example, if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?
Fa Jing without root?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by 59200:
<B>Hello,
A question I've been wondering about is whether it is possible to fa jing without being rooted. For example, if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi 59200
Yes.(Yi power if one know how)
Ciao,have a dear hugged day
yslim
<B>Hello,
A question I've been wondering about is whether it is possible to fa jing without being rooted. For example, if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi 59200
Yes.(Yi power if one know how)
Ciao,have a dear hugged day
yslim
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Bob Ashmore
- Posts: 754
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- Location: Frankfort, KY, USA
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Bob Ashmore:
Is seems you view rooting as a function exclusive to your feet. Whatever gave you that idea?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Bob,
It is nice to hear from you again.
No Bob, I did not have an idea that I view rooting is a function exclusive my feet. I still have and use my feet(as part of my body as a whole that give me more mass or volume for one thing).
I was just giving Mr.59200's question(if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?) with a direct to the point answer, Yes.(yi power if one know how). I still can use my feet, "BUT MY YI IS NOT IN THE FORBIDDEN CITY" AND IT CAN BE PLACE WHERE I NEED TO HELP ME GET OUT THIS HOLD. In short the BODY and the YI MUST WORK TOGETHER AS A WHOLE. My body(yin) was in his bear hugged (yin). this was a yin against yin. What happen to my YI (yang)? So one must learn how to use the YI. If not,then
there is no contest and the big strong win.
Ciao and have a nice day
yslim
Is seems you view rooting as a function exclusive to your feet. Whatever gave you that idea?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hi Bob,
It is nice to hear from you again.
No Bob, I did not have an idea that I view rooting is a function exclusive my feet. I still have and use my feet(as part of my body as a whole that give me more mass or volume for one thing).
I was just giving Mr.59200's question(if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?) with a direct to the point answer, Yes.(yi power if one know how). I still can use my feet, "BUT MY YI IS NOT IN THE FORBIDDEN CITY" AND IT CAN BE PLACE WHERE I NEED TO HELP ME GET OUT THIS HOLD. In short the BODY and the YI MUST WORK TOGETHER AS A WHOLE. My body(yin) was in his bear hugged (yin). this was a yin against yin. What happen to my YI (yang)? So one must learn how to use the YI. If not,then
there is no contest and the big strong win.
Ciao and have a nice day
yslim
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Bob Ashmore
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
- Location: Frankfort, KY, USA
Yslim,
Sorry I wasn't more clear. I can see the confusion now.
I wasn't asking you the question, I was asking 59200 the question.
It was obvious you know the answer from your post.
Most folks seem to think that rooting is done exclusively with the feet, but this simply is not so.
If this were true, once you were thrown to the ground you would be immediately defeated every time.
This just isn't the case.
Sorry I wasn't more clear. I can see the confusion now.
I wasn't asking you the question, I was asking 59200 the question.
It was obvious you know the answer from your post.
Most folks seem to think that rooting is done exclusively with the feet, but this simply is not so.
If this were true, once you were thrown to the ground you would be immediately defeated every time.
This just isn't the case.
yslim,
Most translations I've seen of Yi define it as "mind intent". Is this what you mean by Yi power? I thought you might have been referring to a type of jing but I don't find it listed under any references I've checked.
Bob Ashmore,
The discussions of root I've seen seem to involve proper body alignment to create a stable connection with the earth. I thought this connection was important in order to fa jing - I am not at the level where I can perform this myself but descriptions seem to imply a wave of energy which starts from the leg and is passed up through the body. From your post it seems I am misunderstanding something fundamental?
My Tai Chi practice is still very much at a novice level so I much appreciate corrections.
Thank you both for the responses.
Most translations I've seen of Yi define it as "mind intent". Is this what you mean by Yi power? I thought you might have been referring to a type of jing but I don't find it listed under any references I've checked.
Bob Ashmore,
The discussions of root I've seen seem to involve proper body alignment to create a stable connection with the earth. I thought this connection was important in order to fa jing - I am not at the level where I can perform this myself but descriptions seem to imply a wave of energy which starts from the leg and is passed up through the body. From your post it seems I am misunderstanding something fundamental?
My Tai Chi practice is still very much at a novice level so I much appreciate corrections.
Thank you both for the responses.
I try to stay away from the absolutist meaning of many references in Chinese because the translations appear to be too singular/uniformed when given an English equivalent.
I understand fajin to be relative meaning the one who was more root (compared to the opponent) will have the power to generate fajin.
No degree of root (failure to do so or inability how to apply) will not allow for fajin at any level.
So no root no fajin, OR if I apply only 10% root and my opponent has 3, then my 10% will be better than his three percent!
I understand fajin to be relative meaning the one who was more root (compared to the opponent) will have the power to generate fajin.
No degree of root (failure to do so or inability how to apply) will not allow for fajin at any level.
So no root no fajin, OR if I apply only 10% root and my opponent has 3, then my 10% will be better than his three percent!
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Louis Swaim
- Posts: 1390
- Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 7:01 am
- Location: Oakland, CA
Greetings 59200,
Regarding your original question: “A question I've been wondering about is whether it is possible to fa jing without being rooted. For example, if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?”
It’s difficult to address this hypothetical. Part of the difficulty lies in establishing what fajin would mean in this context. There are a number of things one could do to break the hold. Whether those things would fit a classical taijiquan definition of fajin is another matter. Another part of the difficulty lies in what “being rooted” means. Just for the sake of argument, one could make a case that if I were being bear hugged and lifted off the ground my structure and alignment would be compromised. However, there is still a root; I’m connected to the ground through the person holding me. It would be better to avoid getting into this situation, but I’m connected to the ground in any case.
Not much is said about root in classical taiji documents that I can recall. The Taijiquan Classic, sometimes attributed to Wu Yuxiang, mentions “root” (gen) exactly twice. The first is in the sentence, “It is rooted (gen) in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers.” The second is in reference to lifting “an object,” where it is stated that one must first apply a “dampening force” (cuo). “Thus, its root (gen) will be severed, and it will be collapsed quickly and decisively.” Presumably, the “object” is one’s opponent, and the wording actually implies that the opponent severs his own root (qi gen zi duan) by losing his balance.
In my opinion, both of these mentions of “root” are relevant to what might be called the most optimal context for fajin. That is, to use your words, it is a context that involves “proper body alignment to create a stable connection with the earth,” described in the taiji classic as a progression rooted in the feet and up through the torso into the fingers. Also, in this optimal context, one applies fajin against an opponent whose root has already been broken. The breaking of the opponent’s root is otherwise expressed in the line from the Song of Pushing Hands, “Attract him into emptiness, join, then issue.”
Take care,
Louis
Regarding your original question: “A question I've been wondering about is whether it is possible to fa jing without being rooted. For example, if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?”
It’s difficult to address this hypothetical. Part of the difficulty lies in establishing what fajin would mean in this context. There are a number of things one could do to break the hold. Whether those things would fit a classical taijiquan definition of fajin is another matter. Another part of the difficulty lies in what “being rooted” means. Just for the sake of argument, one could make a case that if I were being bear hugged and lifted off the ground my structure and alignment would be compromised. However, there is still a root; I’m connected to the ground through the person holding me. It would be better to avoid getting into this situation, but I’m connected to the ground in any case.
Not much is said about root in classical taiji documents that I can recall. The Taijiquan Classic, sometimes attributed to Wu Yuxiang, mentions “root” (gen) exactly twice. The first is in the sentence, “It is rooted (gen) in the feet, issued by the legs, governed by the waist, and expressed in the fingers.” The second is in reference to lifting “an object,” where it is stated that one must first apply a “dampening force” (cuo). “Thus, its root (gen) will be severed, and it will be collapsed quickly and decisively.” Presumably, the “object” is one’s opponent, and the wording actually implies that the opponent severs his own root (qi gen zi duan) by losing his balance.
In my opinion, both of these mentions of “root” are relevant to what might be called the most optimal context for fajin. That is, to use your words, it is a context that involves “proper body alignment to create a stable connection with the earth,” described in the taiji classic as a progression rooted in the feet and up through the torso into the fingers. Also, in this optimal context, one applies fajin against an opponent whose root has already been broken. The breaking of the opponent’s root is otherwise expressed in the line from the Song of Pushing Hands, “Attract him into emptiness, join, then issue.”
Take care,
Louis
Hello Louis Swaim,
Thank you for your detailed explanations of fa jing and root. (And apologies for responding so late - been so busy with work I almost forgot about this thread.) That is a very interesting point that the opponent would still be connected to the earth.
To clarify my original intent in creating this thread, I had heard stories about Chen Xiaowang being able to easily escape all sorts of holds (even from sitting in a chair!) by releasing internal energy. I was wondering whether this was still possible in the air, which from previous responses seems to be yes.
My own limited understanding of fa jing and rootedness may have caused my original question to be less clearly worded than I had intended. I believe this has already been answered, but on a bit of a tangential note I am curious as to how one would escape from the "bear hug in air" situation beyond being able to simply generate an "explosive outward release of energy" (this may be phrasing it crudely).
Thank you for your detailed explanations of fa jing and root. (And apologies for responding so late - been so busy with work I almost forgot about this thread.) That is a very interesting point that the opponent would still be connected to the earth.
To clarify my original intent in creating this thread, I had heard stories about Chen Xiaowang being able to easily escape all sorts of holds (even from sitting in a chair!) by releasing internal energy. I was wondering whether this was still possible in the air, which from previous responses seems to be yes.
My own limited understanding of fa jing and rootedness may have caused my original question to be less clearly worded than I had intended. I believe this has already been answered, but on a bit of a tangential note I am curious as to how one would escape from the "bear hug in air" situation beyond being able to simply generate an "explosive outward release of energy" (this may be phrasing it crudely).
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Bob Ashmore
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
- Location: Frankfort, KY, USA
59200,
I too must apologize for not returning to the thread in a timely fashion, mostly for the same reasons.
I'll cut to the chase here.
The problem that you seem to be trying to address is "what happens to your root if your feet aren't on the ground?".
Rooting is usually done through the feet and legs, it's the easiest and first way most people learn about it, unfortunately (in my PHO) the concept then becomes integrated into a lot of minds as only being achievable if both of your feet are firmly planted on the ground.
I want you to think about this: How often are both of your feet on the ground at the exact same time?
Beyond that, what does a person do who has no feet? Are they strictly unable then to ever root or produce fa jing in their Tai Chi practice?
I think the best way I ever learned to understand the concept of "rooting" was shown to me a long time ago by my oldest brother, who was trying to teach me how to hammer in a nail while we were re-roofing a house. I was about ten years old and before we went up on the roof he had me drive nails into boards while were standing on the ground. With my feet firmly planted on terra firma I could drive the nails in every time. This was very easy.
On a side note, I noticed immediately that it was easier to drive those nails with one hand only if the opposite hand was firmly held against a solid object. Yet another apect of "rooting" to consider: balance of energy. But I digress...
Once up on the roof, however, we were primarily on our knees. At first it was very difficult to do this, until my brother pointed out that all I had to do was consider my knees to now be my foundation (in place of my feet), after that it become easy to drive those nails again.
Then we reached a portion of the roof where I had to lay on my side in order to reach the areas to be nailed due to a height restriction (an overhang). Now what was I to do? The answer was simple, I applied what I had learned about changing my idea of where my foundation was (feet to knees, now feet to hip) and there I was driving in nails again.
Quite a few years later I was working on a construction crew, we were hanging rafters in a new house. I found myself in a position at one point in which I could not get any portion of my lower body in a position to give me a solid enough foundation to drive nails through the rafter into the anchor stud.
Now what?
It took me a few minutes, but once again what saved the day was my ability to reorient my minds intention for another part of my body. The only way I could drive those nails effectively was to "root" myself with my left arm by coiling it around the bottom board of the rafter while driving the nail with my right arm.
What was funner was when I got to the extreme right hand side of that particular rafter and had to reverse the process, coiling my right arm around the board while I drove the nails with my left.
This was, of course, all long before the advent of nail guns on construction sites (yes, I'm really that old) when you had to drive in all of your nails by hand.
I hope this gives you a starting point to understanding at least a rudimentary idea of the concept of "rooting".
It is usually a process in your feet and legs, but does not have to be. Any portion of your body that can come into contact with a solid enough object can be used to "root" you for an action.
From this I hope you see that "rooting" doesn't even have to be done with the "ground" per se. It can be done against any solid enough object.
In your scenario, and as Louis has pointed out, you could quite easily "root" against your opponents own body and initiate an action using this as your foundation.
Hope this helps.
[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 06-11-2008).]
I too must apologize for not returning to the thread in a timely fashion, mostly for the same reasons.
I'll cut to the chase here.
The problem that you seem to be trying to address is "what happens to your root if your feet aren't on the ground?".
Rooting is usually done through the feet and legs, it's the easiest and first way most people learn about it, unfortunately (in my PHO) the concept then becomes integrated into a lot of minds as only being achievable if both of your feet are firmly planted on the ground.
I want you to think about this: How often are both of your feet on the ground at the exact same time?
Beyond that, what does a person do who has no feet? Are they strictly unable then to ever root or produce fa jing in their Tai Chi practice?
I think the best way I ever learned to understand the concept of "rooting" was shown to me a long time ago by my oldest brother, who was trying to teach me how to hammer in a nail while we were re-roofing a house. I was about ten years old and before we went up on the roof he had me drive nails into boards while were standing on the ground. With my feet firmly planted on terra firma I could drive the nails in every time. This was very easy.
On a side note, I noticed immediately that it was easier to drive those nails with one hand only if the opposite hand was firmly held against a solid object. Yet another apect of "rooting" to consider: balance of energy. But I digress...
Once up on the roof, however, we were primarily on our knees. At first it was very difficult to do this, until my brother pointed out that all I had to do was consider my knees to now be my foundation (in place of my feet), after that it become easy to drive those nails again.
Then we reached a portion of the roof where I had to lay on my side in order to reach the areas to be nailed due to a height restriction (an overhang). Now what was I to do? The answer was simple, I applied what I had learned about changing my idea of where my foundation was (feet to knees, now feet to hip) and there I was driving in nails again.
Quite a few years later I was working on a construction crew, we were hanging rafters in a new house. I found myself in a position at one point in which I could not get any portion of my lower body in a position to give me a solid enough foundation to drive nails through the rafter into the anchor stud.
Now what?
It took me a few minutes, but once again what saved the day was my ability to reorient my minds intention for another part of my body. The only way I could drive those nails effectively was to "root" myself with my left arm by coiling it around the bottom board of the rafter while driving the nail with my right arm.
What was funner was when I got to the extreme right hand side of that particular rafter and had to reverse the process, coiling my right arm around the board while I drove the nails with my left.
This was, of course, all long before the advent of nail guns on construction sites (yes, I'm really that old) when you had to drive in all of your nails by hand.
I hope this gives you a starting point to understanding at least a rudimentary idea of the concept of "rooting".
It is usually a process in your feet and legs, but does not have to be. Any portion of your body that can come into contact with a solid enough object can be used to "root" you for an action.
From this I hope you see that "rooting" doesn't even have to be done with the "ground" per se. It can be done against any solid enough object.
In your scenario, and as Louis has pointed out, you could quite easily "root" against your opponents own body and initiate an action using this as your foundation.
Hope this helps.
[This message has been edited by Bob Ashmore (edited 06-11-2008).]
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Bob Ashmore
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- Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 6:01 am
- Location: Frankfort, KY, USA
As for going beyond an "explosive outward release of energy"...
There are all types of Tai Chi energy that are neithre explosive or outward that can be used in many different situations.
In all there are 13 energies, then there are combinations of those 13 energies. Which one you would use depends on who you interpret your listening energy (ting jin).
Outwardly explosive energy is only one weapon in the arsenal of energies available in Tai Chi Chuan.
How one would escape from the bear hug scenario would depend entirely on the context of the situation at the time, your training, your interpretation of the event as it was happening...
There are way too many variables involved to easily answer such a question.
There are all types of Tai Chi energy that are neithre explosive or outward that can be used in many different situations.
In all there are 13 energies, then there are combinations of those 13 energies. Which one you would use depends on who you interpret your listening energy (ting jin).
Outwardly explosive energy is only one weapon in the arsenal of energies available in Tai Chi Chuan.
How one would escape from the bear hug scenario would depend entirely on the context of the situation at the time, your training, your interpretation of the event as it was happening...
There are way too many variables involved to easily answer such a question.
If Fajin is limited in this principle:Xujin is like streching the bow;Fajin like shooting an arrow,then you can test while you are lifted in the air.
In fighting, you yourself can move firm while either your one foot is reacting upon the ground. I think it is the good performance of the "rooting".
So the umlimited question is getting confused. However, Taichi Chuang is precise in fighting. The prinple should be our ancestor's exprieced statememt.
If talking about Taichi, it is limitless.
But Taichi "Chuang" is limited and precise.
In fighting, you yourself can move firm while either your one foot is reacting upon the ground. I think it is the good performance of the "rooting".
So the umlimited question is getting confused. However, Taichi Chuang is precise in fighting. The prinple should be our ancestor's exprieced statememt.
If talking about Taichi, it is limitless.
But Taichi "Chuang" is limited and precise.
I agree with the following statement from Bob Ashmore:"rooting" doesn't even have to be done with the "ground" per se. It can be done against any solid enough object.
On the other hand,how the Taichiquan practioner uproots the opponent is not to let the opponent touch any solid part of your body as his support.
Then you have rooting and he has no rooting.
It's easy to control the opponent.
[This message has been edited by fumin (edited 06-11-2008).]
On the other hand,how the Taichiquan practioner uproots the opponent is not to let the opponent touch any solid part of your body as his support.
Then you have rooting and he has no rooting.
It's easy to control the opponent.
[This message has been edited by fumin (edited 06-11-2008).]
it was asked
I would say that at this juncture 'ting jing' (listening energy) would be more important than fajin because as you 'felt/sensed' the oncoming force, you would still be rooted enough to evade the hug by going under and striking, hitting, applying qinna or throwing<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">if one were bear hugged and lifted into the air, is fa jing still usable to break the hold?”</font>
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by shugdenla:
it was asked I would say that at this juncture 'ting jing' (listening energy) would be more important than fajin because as you 'felt/sensed' the oncoming force, you would still be rooted enough to evade the hug by going under and striking, hitting, applying qinna or throwing</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why is Taichquan having so many requests?
And so often it causes many confusions, doubts, questions and discusions.
All is that Taichiquan requires that the central idea be carried out-- the soft and weak overcome the hard and strong.
Otherwise,there is no need for the stronger to obey the Taichiquan principles because 99% of the stronger wins the weak, and 1% of the stronger loses owing to accident.
So Taichiquan creates many fancy and imaginary pictures for most of the weak and the old.
However, once the weak and the old really overcome the strong and the young. It becomes a beautiful story and legend.
it was asked I would say that at this juncture 'ting jing' (listening energy) would be more important than fajin because as you 'felt/sensed' the oncoming force, you would still be rooted enough to evade the hug by going under and striking, hitting, applying qinna or throwing</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why is Taichquan having so many requests?
And so often it causes many confusions, doubts, questions and discusions.
All is that Taichiquan requires that the central idea be carried out-- the soft and weak overcome the hard and strong.
Otherwise,there is no need for the stronger to obey the Taichiquan principles because 99% of the stronger wins the weak, and 1% of the stronger loses owing to accident.
So Taichiquan creates many fancy and imaginary pictures for most of the weak and the old.
However, once the weak and the old really overcome the strong and the young. It becomes a beautiful story and legend.