Yang Family Tai Chi Discussion Board

I started this under the seating wrist thread but it deserves its own, so I'll move it here.

太极拳论 王宗岳

1. 太极者，无极而生，动静之机，阴阳之母也。
2. 动之则分，静之则合。无过不及，随曲就伸。
3. 人刚我柔谓之走，我顺人背谓之粘。
4. 动急则急应，动缓则缓随。
5. 虽变化万端，而理为一贯。
6. 由招熟而渐悟懂劲，由懂劲而阶及神明。
7. 然非用力日久，不能豁然贯通焉。
8. 虚灵顶劲，气沉丹田。
9. 不偏不倚，忽隐忽现。
10. 左重则左虚，右重则右杳。
11. 仰之则弥高，府之则弥深，
12. 进之则愈长，退之则愈促。
13. 一羽不能加，蝇虫不能落，
14. 人不知我，我独知人。
15. 英雄所向无敌，盖皆由此而及也。
16. 斯技旁门甚多，虽势有区别，概不外，
17. 壮欺弱，慢让快耳。有力打无力，
18. 手慢让手快，是皆先天自然之能，
19. 非关学力而有为 也。
20. 察四两拨千斤之句，显非力胜；
21. 观耄耋御众之形，快何能为。
22. 立如秤准，活如车轮，
23. 偏沉则随，双重则滞。
24. 每见数年纯功，不能运化者，率皆自为人制，
25. 双重之病未悟而。
26. 欲避此病，须知阴阳；
27. 粘即是走，走即是粘，
28. 阳不离阴，阴不离阳；阴阳相济，
29. 方为懂劲。懂劲后，愈练愈精，
30. 默识揣摩，渐至从心所欲。
31. 本是舍己从人，多误舍近求远。
32. 所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里。
33. 学者不可不详辨焉。
34. 是为论。

I got this text off the web.
If you know a nicer format let us know. Taijiquan Lun is not really that long. Let's just go through it.

There are some encoding problems now so I will edit and try to clear up the text.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 08-24-2008).]

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 09-01-2008).]

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 10-25-2008).]

Before we actually start looking at the text, we should mention authorship and provenance. Wang Zongyue said to be a Qing dynasty personage. There are several text sources, but mainly the Wan edition, the Li edition, and the Xu edition.

OK I had some encoding problems which seemed to be related to allowing the text to wrap around in the text entry box. By chopping off shorter pieces the chars all seem to display correctly now. Let me know if you can't read it and we can try a few more tricks.

Greetings Jerry,

Because of your suggestion on another thread, I was wondering about this very idea. Thanks for setting the stage and posing the challenge.

Even though my skills are probably not up to the task, let me try the first couple of lines.

Ì«¼«Õߣ¬ÎÞ¼«¶øÉú£¬¶¯¾²Ö®»ú£¬ÒõÑô֮ĸҲ¡£
¶¯Ö®Ôò·Ö£¬¾²Ö®ÔòºÏ¡£ÎÞ¹ý²»¼°£¬ËæÇú¾ÍÉì¡£

"What is the Supreme Limit? It is born from that which has no limits, the crux of movement and stillness, the mother of Yin and Yang.
In movement it separates; in stillness it combines. Without excess or insufficiency, it follows the bend and goes with the straight."

I have several questions about these lines. First, how far does the topic "Supreme Limit" (the Taiji/Tai Chi) extend over the following phrases? Do they all apply to the Taiji, or do some of them apply to that which has no limit (Wuji) or perhaps even to the practioner him or herself?

How should the last phrase be parsed, and what does ¾Í (jiu4) mean in this context? I think I like the meaning of jiu4 best as a full verb meaning something similar to Ëæ (sui2), but do not know whether this is warranted. I think most translators see this phrase as refering to neutralizing and issuing and so see the relationship as temporal: Follow the curve and then straighten.

Although I first saw the Chinese in this way, it struck me as too specific a meaning for the very beginning. Why limit the Taiji to neutralizing and then issuing? I wonder if it is not better to emphasize its neutrality: it can follow, bending like a bow, or go along straight, flying like an arrow.

Any comments?

Take care,
Audi

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 08-24-2008).]

[This message has been edited by Audi (edited 08-24-2008).]

For the life of me, I cannot figure out how to get around these encoding issues. Can someone give a suggestion? I even tried copying and pasting Jerry's text, but it worked only one out of six or seven attempts. The only thing I can do for my own viewing is to manually change the View Encoding to Chinese Simplified GB2312. I use Internet Explorer 7.

Audi

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
<B>I started this under the seating wrist thread but it deserves its own, so I'll move it here.

太极拳论 王宗岳

太极者，无极而生，动静之机，阴阳之母也。
动之则分，静之则合。无过不及，随曲就伸。
人刚我柔谓之走，我顺人背谓之粘。
动急则急应，动缓则缓随。
虽变化万端，而理为一贯。
由招熟而渐悟懂劲，由懂劲而阶及神明。
然非用力日久，不能豁然贯通焉。
虚灵顶劲，气沉丹田。
不偏不倚，忽隐忽现。
左重则左虚，右重则右杳。
仰之则弥高，府之则弥深，
进之则愈长，退之则愈促。
一羽不能加，蝇虫不能落，
人不知我，我独知人。
英雄所向无敌，盖皆由此而及也。
斯技旁门甚多，虽势有区别，概不外，
壮欺弱，慢让快耳。有力打无力，
手慢让手快，是皆先天自然之能，
非关学力而有为 也。
察四两拨千斤之句，显非力胜；
观耄耋御众之形，快何能为。
立如秤准，活如车轮，
偏沉则随，双重则滞。
每见数年纯功，不能运化者，率皆自为人制，
双重之病未悟而。
欲避此病，须知阴阳；
粘即是走，走即是粘，
阳不离阴，阴不离阳；阴阳相济，
方为懂劲。懂劲后，愈练愈精，
默识揣摩，渐至从心所欲。
本是舍己从人，多误舍近求远。
所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里。
学者不可不详辨焉。
是为论。

I got this text off the web.
If you know a nicer format let us know. Taijiquan Lun is not really that long. Let's just go through it.

There are some encoding problems now so I will edit and try to clear up the text.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 08-24-2008).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi

Can somebody kind enough to tell me if I am a computer idiot or my computer is an idiot? or all the above.

When Jerry Karin post some Chinese characters, my computer and I can read it in either Mandarin and/or Cantonese. we don't feel like an idiot with these characters. But when Audi and Louis Swaim posts their Chinese characters it look like some Chinese radicals of the third kind on my computer.

Ì«¼«Õߣ¬ÎÞ¼«¶øÉú£¬¶¯¾²Ö®»ú£¬ÒõÑô֮ĸҲ¡£
¶¯Ö®Ôò·Ö£¬¾²Ö®ÔòºÏ¡£ÎÞ¹ý²»¼°£¬ËæÇú¾ÍÉì¡£

With this I proclaim "I am a Chinese American" Jose, can you read....?

I wish I could
Lim

Audi, I liked that. You gave 'crux' for ji, which could more literally be rendered 'trigger', perhaps.

I know the encoding is a problem. Try not to exceed the line lengths I have now up above. I think the html end of line tags and the double byte chars do not always get split correctly by this bulletin board software. So if you keep it short it seems to work. Occasionally it appears that some of us have typed stuff in using different encodings, and the browsers typically handle only one at a time. I'm using Firefox version 2.

[

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 08-24-2008).]

OK, let me try numbering the lines so if all else fails refer to line number.

Ì«¼«È­ÂÛ Íõ×ÚÔÀ

1. Ì«¼«Õߣ¬ÎÞ¼«¶øÉú£¬¶¯¾²Ö®»ú£¬ÒõÑô֮ĸҲ¡£
2. ¶¯Ö®Ôò·Ö£¬¾²Ö®ÔòºÏ¡£ÎÞ¹ý²»¼°£¬ËæÇú¾ÍÉì¡£
3. È˸ÕÎÒÈáν֮×ߣ¬ÎÒ˳È˱³Î½Ö®Õ³¡£
4. ¶¯¼±Ôò¼±Ó¦£¬¶¯»ºÔò»ºËæ¡£
5. Ëä±ä»¯Íò¶Ë£¬¶øÀíΪһ¹á¡£
6. ÓÉÕÐÊì¶ø½¥Îò¶®¾¢£¬Óɶ®¾¢¶ø½×¼°ÉñÃ÷¡£
7. È»·ÇÓÃÁ¦Èվ㬲»ÄÜ»íÈ»¹áͨÑÉ¡£
8. ÐéÁ鶥¾¢£¬Æø³Áµ¤Ìï¡£
9. ²»Æ«²»ÒУ¬ºöÒþºöÏÖ¡£
10. ×óÖØÔò×óÐ飬ÓÒÖØÔòÓÒèá£
11. ÑöÖ®ÔòÃָߣ¬¸®Ö®ÔòÃÖÉ
11. ½øÖ®ÔòÓú³¤£¬ÍËÖ®ÔòÓú´Ù¡£
13. Ò»Óð²»Äܼӣ¬Ó¬³æ²»ÄÜÂ䣬
14. È˲»ÖªÎÒ£¬ÎÒ¶ÀÖªÈË¡£
15. Ó¢ÐÛËùÏòÎ޵У¬¸Ç½ÔÓɴ˶ø¼°Ò²¡£
16. ˹¼¼ÅÔÃÅÉõ¶à£¬ËäÊÆÓÐÇø±ð£¬¸Å²»Í⣬
17. ׳ÆÛÈõ£¬ÂýÈÿì¶ú¡£ÓÐÁ¦´òÎÞÁ¦£¬
18. ÊÖÂýÈÃÊֿ죬ÊǽÔÏÈÌì×ÔȻ֮ÄÜ£¬
19. ·Ç¹ØѧÁ¦¶øÓÐΪ Ò²¡£
20. ²ìËÄÁ½²¦Ç§½ïÖ®¾ä£¬ÏÔ·ÇÁ¦Ê¤£»
21. ¹Ûë£ñóÓùÖÚÖ®ÐΣ¬¿ìºÎÄÜΪ¡£
22. Á¢Èç³Ó×¼£¬»îÈç³µÂÖ£¬
23. Æ«³ÁÔòË棬˫ÖØÔòÖÍ¡£
24. ÿ¼ûÊýÄê´¿¹¦£¬²»ÄÜÔË»¯Õߣ¬ÂʽÔ×ÔΪÈËÖÆ£¬
25. Ë«ÖØÖ®²¡Î´Îò¶ø¡£
26. Óû±Ü´Ë²¡£¬ÐëÖªÒõÑô£»
27. Õ³¼´ÊÇ×ߣ¬×ß¼´ÊÇÕ³£¬
28. Ñô²»ÀëÒõ£¬Òõ²»ÀëÑô£»ÒõÑôÏà¼Ã£¬
29. ·½Îª¶®¾¢¡£¶®¾¢ºó£¬ÓúÁ·Óú¾«£¬
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34. ÊÇΪÂÛ¡£

(Corrected numbering per yslim.)

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 08-25-2008).]

One suggestion, try setting encoding (typically in View menu) to Chinese Simplified GB2312.

Greetings,

According to Shen Shou, the third phrase in line 1, “dong jing zhi ji,” is absent in the Yang, Chen Weiming, and Li Yiyu versions of the taijiquan lun, but appears in Xu Longhou’s, Xu Zhiyi’s, and other versions. I would be inclined to translate the ji as “trigger,” or perhaps better as “pivot”—the pivot of movement and stillness.

The opening lines are evidently inspired by the themes and language of the Ming philosopher Zhou Dunyi’s short text, “Taiji tu shuo.” I think this is an effort to place the boxing art into a wider cultural frame of reference, with the theme of taiji being seen as a model for an ultimate psycho-physical stance involving the cultivation and maintenance of equilibrium. This can also be seen in the embedded quotes from Zhu Xi’s commentary to Doctrine of the Mean, “wu guo bu ji” in line two, and further down in line nine, “bu pian bu yi.”

Audi, regarding your question: ‘. . . how far does the topic "Supreme Limit" (the Taiji/Tai Chi) extend over the following phrases? Do they all apply to the Taiji, or do some of them apply to that which has no limit (Wuji) or perhaps even to the practioner him or herself?’

As I see it, the opening lines are descriptive, but the voice changes to prescriptive somewhere in line two, perhaps with the phrase “Follow, bend, then extend” (sui, qu, jiu shen). This interpretation is consistent with the Chinese philosophical impulse to embody macrocosmic ideas at the microcosmic level. So, the opening lines set up the macro ideal, but the text then proceeds to get to more practical, experiential detail.

Take care,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 08-29-2008).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
<B>I started this under the seating wrist feel like an idiot with these characterthread but it deserves its own, so I'll move it here.

太极拳论 王宗岳

太极者，无极而生，动静之机，阴阳之母也。
动之则分，静之则合。无过不及，随曲就伸。
人刚我柔谓之走，我顺人背谓之粘。
动急则急应，动缓则缓随。
虽变化万端，而理为一贯。
由招熟而渐悟懂劲，由懂劲而阶及神明。
然非用力日久，不能豁然贯通焉。
虚灵顶劲，气沉丹田。
不偏不倚，忽隐忽现。
左重则左虚，右重则右杳。
仰之则弥高，府之则弥深，
进之则愈长，退之则愈促。
一羽不能加，蝇虫不能落，
人不知我，我独知人。
英雄所向无敌，盖皆由此而及也。
斯技旁门甚多，虽势有区别，概不外，
壮欺弱，慢让快耳。有力打无力，
手慢让手快，是皆先天自然之能，
非关学力而有为 也。
察四两拨千斤之句，显非力胜；
观耄耋御众之形，快何能为。
立如秤准，活如车轮，
偏沉则随，双重则滞。
每见数年纯功，不能运化者，率皆自为人制，
双重之病未悟而。
欲避此病，须知阴阳；
粘即是走，走即是粘，
阳不离阴，阴不离阳；阴阳相济，
方为懂劲。懂劲后，愈练愈精，
默识揣摩，渐至从心所欲。
本是舍己从人，多误舍近求远。
所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里。
学者不可不详辨焉。
是为论。

I got this text off the web.
If you know a nicer format let us know. Taijiquan Lun is not really that long. Let's just go through it.

There are some encoding problems now so I will edit and try to clear up the text.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 08-24-2008).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



[This message has been edited by yslim (edited 08-25-2008).]

[This message has been edited by yslim (edited 08-25-2008).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JerryKarin:
<B>I started this under the seating wrist thread but it deserves its own, so I'll move it here.

太极拳论 王宗岳
太极者，无极而生，动静之机，阴阳之母也。
动之则分，静之则合。无过不及，随曲就伸。
人刚我柔谓之走，我顺人背谓之粘。
动急则急应，动缓则缓随。
虽变化万端，而理为一贯。
由招熟而渐悟懂劲，由懂劲而阶及神明。
然非用力日久，不能豁然贯通焉。
虚灵顶劲，气沉丹田。
不偏不倚，忽隐忽现。
左重则左虚，右重则右杳。
仰之则弥高，府之则弥深，
进之则愈长，退之则愈促。
一羽不能加，蝇虫不能落，
人不知我，我独知人。
英雄所向无敌，盖皆由此而及也。
斯技旁门甚多，虽势有区别，概不外，
壮欺弱，慢让快耳。有力打无力，
手慢让手快，是皆先天自然之能，
非关学力而有为 也。
察四两拨千斤之句，显非力胜；
观耄耋御众之形，快何能为。
立如秤准，活如车轮，
偏沉则随，双重则滞。
每见数年纯功，不能运化者，率皆自为人制，
双重之病未悟而。
欲避此病，须知阴阳；
粘即是走，走即是粘，
阳不离阴，阴不离阳；阴阳相济，
方为懂劲。懂劲后，愈练愈精，
默识揣摩，渐至从心所欲。
本是舍己从人，多误舍近求远。
所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里。
学者不可不详辨焉。
是为论。

I got this text off the web.
If you know a nicer format let us know. Taijiquan Lun is not really that long. Let's just go through it.

There are some encoding problems now so I will edit and try to clear up the text.

[This message has been edited by JerryKarin (edited 08-24-2008).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Jerry

I like this one better. I have 34 lines on your original post.

You have 35 lines on your second post because
you missed (skip) the #11 (you went from 10 to 12). Besides I think only Louis swiam can read your second post,because he is a schola
in Chinese

Ciao
yslim


太极拳论 王宗

1 太极者，无极而生，动静之机，阴阳之母也。
2 动之则分，静之则合。无过不及，随曲就伸。
3 人刚我柔谓之走，我顺人背谓之粘。
4 动急则急应，动缓则缓随。
5 虽变化万端，而理为一贯。
6 由招熟而渐悟懂劲，由懂劲而阶及神明。
7 然非用力日久，不能豁然贯通焉。
8 虚灵顶劲，气沉丹田。
9 不偏不倚，忽隐忽现。
10 左重则左虚，右重则右杳。
11 仰之则弥高，府之则弥深，
12 进之则愈长，退之则愈促。
13 一羽不能加，蝇虫不能落，
14 人不知我，我独知人。
15 英雄所向无敌，盖皆由此而及也。
16 斯技旁门甚多，虽势有区别，概不外，
17 壮欺弱，慢让快耳。有力打无力，
18 手慢让手快，是皆先天自然之能，
19 非关学力而有为 也。
20 察四两拨千斤之句，显非力胜；
21 观耄耋御众之形，快何能为。
22 立如秤准，活如车轮，
23 偏沉则随，双重则滞。
24 每见数年纯功，不能运化者，率皆自为人制，
25 双重之病未悟而。
26 欲避此病，须知阴阳；
27 粘即是走，走即是粘，
28 阳不离阴，阴不离阳；阴阳相济，
29 方为懂劲。懂劲后，愈练愈精，
30 默识揣摩，渐至从心所欲。
31 本是舍己从人，多误舍近求远。
32 所谓差之毫厘，谬之千里。
33 学者不可不详辨焉。
34 是为论。

Louis makes some good points here. It is clear that the author is building upon a commonly held thread in the culture of seeing macrocosm and microcosm as mirroring each other in structure and function. For example the hierarchy of the family is seen as a mirror of the structures in the larger society, father = king, etc. So there is an ambitious idea here of sort of perfecting the universe in one's own person. There is an attempt to build this theory upon the Neo-Confucian ideas from taijitu, the taiji diagram, and commentaries on it.

Here’s a link to a Chinese text (traditional characters, set browser to Big Five encoding) of some of Zhou Dunyi’s writings. Scroll down just a bit for “Taiji Tu Shuo” (Explanation of the Taiji Chart). The indented material below the main text lines is commentary by Zhu Xi. Sprinkled throughout are terms familiar to us in Taijiquan theory, including taiji, wuji, yin/yang, hard/soft, movement/stillness, trigger/pivot (ji, and shu-niu), qi, shen, ti/yong, “centrality” (zhong), as well as bagua and five phases language.
http://sangle.web.wesleyan.edu/etext/so ... /zhou.html

Here’s a link to a translation of same by Joseph Adler:

http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache:ad ... cd=2&gl=us

There are also translations in Wing Tsit-Chan’s Source Book in Chinese Philosophy, and Feng Youlan’s (Fung Yu-lan) History of Chinese Philosophy, Vol. 2.

--Louis

Greetings,

So, what about the third line? I think it’s easy to render the first part: “When the other is hard, and I am soft, this is called yielding.” The second part, however, is more problematic. There is some ambiguity for me in the intended meaning of “bei.” Ordinarily, this is simply a noun for “back”—that is, one’s anatomical back. One could make a case that here it refers to “me” following the direction of the opponent’s back, hence, “I go along (shun) with the other’s ‘backing-up’; this is called adhering.” Some versions of the Lun (Wu Tunan’s, I recall), has “ni” instead of “bei.” The pairing of shun/ni (going with the flow / going against the flow) as polar opposites—has a long history in Chinese philosophical, medical and other texts. I’m not convinced it would work here, however, as one would have to do some extrapolating in order to understand the phrase with shun/ni in place: “I go with the flow [while/even though] the other goes against the flow; this [my movement strategy] is called adhering.”

What do others think?

Take care,
Louis


[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 08-28-2008).]