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Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:03 pm
by mls_72
In my small 20 years of Taijiquan practice and recent observations with frustrated new students of Taijiquan (TJQ), I am seeing a breakdown of good fundamentals not taught by many veteran and expert teachers of Yang Taijiquan and its other variants. This has mostly been students of more Traditional TJQ like Cheng Man Ching's (CMC) and Yang's Long form TJQ. It takes a very long time for beginners to grasp the form as taught by many instructors of these forms. However I see that people who learn the 24 form have much improved and better grasp of the movements of Taijiquan in shorter amount of time than the Traditionalists. Why is this?
Based on my own experience when starting with CMC form in late 80's early 90's, the teachers did not teach stretching, stances, or basic stepping and movements. They begin the student with "The form" with justification "its all in the form". Rarely a teacher might import a brief warm-up like 'Ba Dua Jing' to the curriculum. In my experience with teachers who taught Yang Family Taijiquan form it was pretty much taught the same way with going right into 'Raise hands' , Grasp Bird tail, Single Whip, ect." and thus leaving the beginner trying to copy a series of movements and stepping completely foreign to their balance, mind-body connection, and muscle memory. A high degree of frustration ensues, quality of movement sacrificed, inability to retain information, and willingness to continue with long term study is then defeated. A lack of interest and drop out rate soon sets in.
Enter the 24 form-
When I met a teacher from Yongnian Taijiquan Association, who was also a member of the Shanghai Wushu Sports University in early 90's, a new understanding of Taijiquan was presented. As a teacher well versed in the International and National competitions in China and USA, the modern approach to teaching was modern and systematic. The negative scrutiny of the traditionalist that "It's not Taiji" changed to small adjustments and corrections, to a 'flowing movement vs exact posture' approach. Here is how Taijiquan was broken down by the modern instructor:
Basics:
-Warm up consisted of joint opening and loosening exercises from head to toe. This included neck, shoulders, elbow, wrist, waist, spine, hips, knees, ankles.
-Various athletic sports style stretches for legs, back, hip, waist, ect.
-traditional stances.
-Stepping drills- walking forward, backward and sideways without hand movements.
-walking forward, backward and sideways with hand movements: Part horse mane, Brush Knee, Wave hands, Repulse monkey.
With learning those simple amount of basics and progressing with them, my own Taijiquan quickly improved. Later when I decided to teach, my students were able to quickly surpass the traditionalist's students and even compete in local tournaments and win. Along the way I was even able to help struggling Taijiquan schools with established curriculum's and have positive results with students I taught. It was because these teachers were not taught this way that the student has to miss this as well. Taijiquan teachers who opened up to this approach helped business and frustrated beginners gave thanks and ability improved.
The reason I am writing this is because two clients of mine from the Information Technology side business have taken up Taijiquan. One is learning the CMC form and the other Yang Long form from some teachers I know. Both are very confused and not certain how long it will take for them to "get it" after over a year now and just getting to 1st Brush knee- play pipa. After a year! I know if they were to learn the basics, they would grasp it much quicker as the information would be beneficial. I see this when I go to many groups that have free classes in the parks as well. Going right into the form without good basics simply does not help the novice student. Though I don't teach anymore nor haven't taught in many years, it motivates me to start teaching Taijiquan again even though I am happy with my current training with Boxing and Thai Boxing.
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 3:28 pm
by mls_72
Basics:
-Warm up consisted of joint opening and loosening exercises from head to toe. This included neck, shoulders, elbow, wrist, waist, spine, hips, knees, ankles.
-Various athletic sports style stretches for legs, back, hip, waist, ect.
-traditional stances.
-Stepping drills- walking forward, backward and sideways without hand movements.
-walking forward, backward and sideways with hand movements: Part horse mane, Brush Knee, Wave hands, Repulse monkey.
A little bit more about this:
The stepping drills is doing walking across a room so you get rows of repetition and a lot of it. The stepping without hand movement and then with hand movement takes a good 40 minutes and the legs are toughened and sore. The heavy elements sink making legs feel heavy and lighter elements move upward with arms feeling lighter.
Also ‘Peng-Lu-Ji-An’ sequence can be repeated moving forward getting both left and right side done.- excellent basic.
In this way you can choose small sections to repeat. For instance the last closing section of ‘Snake creeps down- 7 stars- ride tiger- Sweep lotus- shoot tiger’ can be repeated many times.
So instead of doing a form where you do a few movements once, with basic repetitions you get a lot done with quality.
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:46 pm
by Louis Swaim
Greetings Matt,
Your observations strike me as impressionistic and misleading. Drawing a correlation between teaching methods you’ve observed and particular styles or traditions of taijiquan is a big leap, in my opinion. When I began learning traditional Yang taijiquan in 1974, my sifu devoted an extraordinary amount of time to warm-ups, stretching, stance training, repetitive sequences, and deep horse training. As to training the form itself, every posture was learned in sequence, and the students had to hold the ending postures while Sifu walked from student to student to make meticulous hands-on corrections. This was well before anyone in the U.S. was even thinking about or teaching the committee-created 24 form.
Take care,
Louis
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:27 pm
by mls_72
Louis,
Thanks for the reply. I am glad you had the good fortune to have a competent teacher starting as early as 1974. A teacher of that caliber is rare indeed. Was it a Chinese Master? Long form, Short form?
My observation is based on teachers who have not had the good fortune to have trained with a teacher of that caliber and thus cannot guide students to a higher level of kung fu. This is typical of the type of student that is very enthusiastic early in training and did many seminars, but did not have a long term guidance with a qualified master, constant correction, and feedback from a teacher who could properly guide them. They might have some level of talent, but quickly become instructors. They are a dime a dozen in Taijiquan.
The 24 form was created in 1956 by the Government Sport and Health committee so people could learn for sport and improve physical health. It is often called the "Beijing form" and even the "Communist form" from many people. From what I have heard, the Yang Family had no say into the creation of this form and had much disapproval. It was a different approach to Taijiquan instruction that made learning Taijiquan much easier in my case. I had started with CMC taijiquan and each teacher taught more about how I was not doing Taijiquan than that I was doing it correctly. I guess its a positive vs negative reinforcement that I experienced.
However, having started with American teachers who labeled themselves as 'Masters" but were not fully qualified, I still stand that some of the basic training that was taught to me by the Chinese Master from 24 form improved my understanding and ability. This made learning the Traditional Long form much easier to learn and appreciate, so I pass those basics on to beginners when I can.
Matt
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:43 pm
by Bob Ashmore
Matt,
There are people all over the world who are "playing" TCC without the principles. I constantly correspond with people, and frequently also meet with them, who have no idea what the underlying principles and the basics of movement are in TCC.
Some have been training for quite some time.
However, my experience has been that the 24 form students have no more or deeper understanding of the basics and principles than any other group out there. It's pretty universal among the styles to have those that catch on those that don't.
From this it may seem that some teachers don't seem to be teaching these things. Either they don't know them themselves ore they don't have the experience or knowledge to teach them.
However...
I will not jump to that conclusion because after meeting some of the teachers of the students with the least amount of knowledge of these things I have often found the fault was not with the teacher, his lineage, knowledge, experience or preference.
Indeed, the fault is most often with....
The student.
Some people are just not ready or willing to understand what their teacher is saying. They may hear the words and even be able to parrot them back to someone else, but they do not understand them.
Some people have no desire whatsoever to learn the art any deeper than the choreography. What do you do with these people? You can't force them to learn what they do not want to learn.
And TCC is not alone in this.
I believe that if you were to travel amongst the ranks of other styles of martial arts you would find much the same thing going on there.
All you can do is teach to the best of your ability. Some students will "get it", others will not.
You do the best you can and keep on truckin'.
Bob
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 7:58 pm
by mls_72
Thanks Bob, well put and I agree with that.
I still feel 24 form and the way it is taught can be a good start for someone who wants to go deep into Mastery of the Traditional.
The Chinese teacher I had used it as a stepping stone for teaching the Long form. If a student was willing to complete the 24 form, then they would be able to learn the Long form and know the differences of both.
As for principles, the 10 essentials of Yang Chen Fu were provided for students early on.
Matt
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 2:49 pm
by mls_72
Some Feed back from some other people:
As some call it, Yang 24 (Beijing 24 or just plain old 24 form) does not come directly from the Yang family it comes from Li Tianji
And please correct me if I am wrong but Li Tianji trained with Li Yulin, Sun Lutang and Li Jinglin and he learned Taiji from Li Jinglin, who was a student of Yang Jianhou which of course gets it to the Yang family...kinda.
Li Tianji studied with Li Jinglin so the Yang connection is obviously there and the postures are as those of Yang Chengfu. Beijing 24 shi taijiquan's movements are exaggerated but they are Yang style nonetheless.
more feed back:
Excellent opening post! Now i think the point of the topic has deviated to "what is 24 Taiji" which I am sure is not the point. Let me firstly say from my experience in CMA that , as traditionalists one should try to stick the original as much as possible in all forms, but at the same time we should not be limited by this thought either. When we see something that is useful or beneficial that does not neccessarily come from within our own system, we should make use of it, and by the same token when something whithin our system does not make sense or is not useful, we should first try understand it more, and then improve it so it does make sense or benefit us. Without this type of mindset we will doom our own traditional systems to disappear in the future, or become irrelevant. We need to strive for improvement while still sticking in the confines of or styles as far as possible.
An example of this is the creation of CMC style of Yang Taiji. CMC Taiji is the result of his understanding of Taiji, and the environment in which he practiced. Personally, its not for me, but each to his own.
I want to quote from the topic:
“The 24 form was created in 1956 by the Government Sport and Health committee so people could learn for sport and improve physical health. It is often called the "Beijing form" and even the "Communist form" from many people. From what I have heard, the Yang Family had no say into the creation of this form and had much disapproval. It was a different approach to Taijiquan instruction that made learning Taijiquan much easier in my case. I had started with CMC taijiquan and each teacher taught more about how I was not doing Taijiquan than that I was doing it correctly. I guess its a positive vs negative reinforcement that I experienced.”
The government created a simplified form of taiji for one main reason, and that is to get more people practicing taiji, when I say more people I mean everyday masses and the reason was that they realized the vast benefits of Taiji practice. In comes the Li family who had the task of creating a form, that wasnt too long to be overlooked by the common people, and not too complicated in terms of depth, something they could practice everyday without taking up too much time. In effect it is an INTRODUCTION to taijiquan. It was not meant to replace any taiji by any means but just make it more practical and accessible to everyday people. This introduction is basically a "doorway" to taiji. With that it has to focus on elements that a beginner can grasp, and that will appeal to non martial artists. So it focuses on external elements as opposed to the whole kettle of taiji fish. This has benefits in many ways, including benefits for the promotion of traditional Yang whether you can see it or not. The fact is, the more people that practice this, the more interest that is sparked in people, from this there will be some who will go further in that just the doorway and seek deeper into the road of Taiji. The external is a road to the internal, remember that. Trying to teach people internal principles off the bat is very difficult and from my experience, teaching from an external point of view first helps firstly identify those that have the aptitude to do internal work and secondly get them geared for it.
Back to the topic at hand though. Above is stated that the Yang family had no say in the 24 form and they weren’t happy with it. Well lets not ask them what they had to do with CMC Taiji or what they think of it either…… The task Li Tianji had was a tough one, formulate a clear strategy on the development of 24 taiji for common people. So things had to be clear is black and white, or people wont understand. But with this I believe that a basic taiji training regimen (focus on the word basic here please) was created. Of course warm up and stretching are essential and this is a fact for ANY CMA….it can only do good. After that a curriculum of stepping basics, hand basics, and movement basics were created that helped the beginner develop the skills required for 24 taiji. These are all good, and can only create solid base for Taiji in all forms. Personally I think the approach is a good primer for further Taiji training, albeit superficial at first. But the point is, from the superficial we got in deeper, we cant jump into the deep end straight away from my experience. A systematic approach is needed for beginners, one that focuses on topics they can grasp easily, and this is exactly that.
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:49 pm
by Richard Tolson
Friends,
I am new to Yang style and am currently learning the Yang 24 form from a qualified instructor.
This discussion has made me wonder what I will be missing if I do not go on to the long form.
My instructor is emphasizing the form as a tool for self-defense rather than just aesthetics.
Any input will certainly be appreciated!
Richard
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 1:06 am
by yslim
mls_72 wrote:Some Feed back from some other people:
more feed back:
Excellent opening post! Now i think the point of the topic has deviated to "what is 24 Taiji" which I am sure is not the point. Let me firstly say from my experience in CMA that , as traditionalists one should try to stick the original as much as possible in all forms, but at the same time we should not be limited by this thought either. When we see something that is useful or beneficial that does not neccessarily come from within our own system, we should make use of it, and by the same token when something whithin our system does not make sense or is not useful, we should first try understand it more, and then improve it so it does make sense or benefit us. Without this type of mindset we will doom our own traditional systems to disappear in the future, or become irrelevant. We need to strive for improvement while still sticking in the confines of or styles as far as possible.
An example of this is the creation of CMC style of Yang Taiji. CMC Taiji is the result of his understanding of Taiji, and the environment in which he practiced. Personally, its not for me, but each to his own.
I want to quote from the topic:
“The 24 form was created in 1956 by the Government Sport and Health committee so people could learn for sport and improve physical health. It is often called the "Beijing form" and even the "Communist form" from many people. From what I have heard, the Yang Family had no say into the creation of this form and had much disapproval. It was a different approach to Taijiquan instruction that made learning Taijiquan much easier in my case. I had started with CMC taijiquan and each teacher taught more about how I was not doing Taijiquan than that I was doing it correctly. I guess its a positive vs negative reinforcement that I experienced.”
The government created a simplified form of taiji for one main reason, and that is to get more people practicing taiji, when I say more people I mean everyday masses and the reason was that they realized the vast benefits of Taiji practice. In comes the Li family who had the task of creating a form, that wasnt too long to be overlooked by the common people, and not too complicated in terms of depth, something they could practice everyday without taking up too much time. In effect it is an INTRODUCTION to taijiquan. It was not meant to replace any taiji by any means but just make it more practical and accessible to everyday people. This introduction is basically a "doorway" to taiji. With that it has to focus on elements that a beginner can grasp, and that will appeal to non martial artists. So it focuses on external elements as opposed to the whole kettle of taiji fish. This has benefits in many ways, including benefits for the promotion of traditional Yang whether you can see it or not. The fact is, the more people that practice this, the more interest that is sparked in people, from this there will be some who will go further in that just the doorway and seek deeper into the road of Taiji. The external is a road to the internal, remember that. Trying to teach people internal principles off the bat is very difficult and from my experience, teaching from an external point of view first helps firstly identify those that have the aptitude to do internal work and secondly get them geared for it.
Back to the topic at hand though. Above is stated that the Yang family had no say in the 24 form and they weren’t happy with it. Well lets not ask them what they had to do with CMC Taiji or what they think of it either…… The task Li Tianji had was a tough one, formulate a clear strategy on the development of 24 taiji for common people. So things had to be clear is black and white, or people wont understand. But with this I believe that a basic taiji training regimen (focus on the word basic here please) was created. Of course warm up and stretching are essential and this is a fact for ANY CMA….it can only do good. After that a curriculum of stepping basics, hand basics, and movement basics were created that helped the beginner develop the skills required for 24 taiji. These are all good, and can only create solid base for Taiji in all forms. Personally I think the approach is a good primer for further Taiji training, albeit superficial at first. But the point is, from the superficial we got in deeper, we cant jump into the deep end straight away from my experience. A systematic approach is needed for beginners, one that focuses on topics they can grasp easily, and this is exactly that.
Hi Matt
This post by "more feed back" is a great one. Who he has the wisdom and give us a good road map pointing to learn Taiji....and in life. Even I understand it perfectly...please keep it coming. I have long life....much to learn.
Thank you for posted it. do you know the name who posted it? I think I should read it few more times slowly with my Taiji practices speed. So I may able to clear my mind what your 24 form vs your traditional form as far as you pointing out the basic learning Taiji go. Your own writing gave me an impression that learning 24 form and the traditional form is not the same? The 24 form is no different than the traditional except drop off the repeats and the hard to do's to the Taiji Daycare. You then talking about to do one single posture with repeat moment, I think that is leading back to the traditional form provided. Maybe that where vs CMC come in because I think his form is 37 form. The simple fact is obvious...If the Taiji principles is in,they all the same even a single moment warm up. if not, all exercises is good.
I learned the short form (24) same as I learn the long form(traditional) from a Lao Fan(westerner)teacher as well as teachers imported from China,include Taiwan.I went to China for a 10 days Taiji Camp with more than doz. Chinese "native" masters. All are Internal CMA teachers. Some Gmasters are very old (traditional?) other are young (new form?). I went there to seek what they are WILLING to offer with a empty cup. What I can put in my cup was no different than my Loa Fan teacher is the West. Of course there are different level of skill of teachers to teaches as same rule that rules the students to received. Therefore the students of the East is not any better than the West. One need to able to "eat bitter to study and discover". It is only what and how to unfold as it should. Can I blamed the ground too hard because I can't go poo poo?. (traditional, before the John was invented). Yes to some and don't be silly is to other. It all depend....the Yi.
The "more feed back" has a lot of prime beef for us to regurgitate.
Ciao,
yslim
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:30 am
by yslim
Richard Tolson wrote:Friends,
I am new to Yang style and am currently learning the Yang 24 form from a qualified instructor.
This discussion has made me wonder what I will be missing if I do not go on to the long form.
My instructor is emphasizing the form as a tool for self-defense rather than just aesthetics.
Any input will certainly be appreciated!
Richard
Richard Tolson wrote:Friends,
HI RICHARD, SINCE YOU KNOW YOU ARE LEARNING THE 24 FORM FROM A QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR, THE BEST THING FOR YOU TO DO IS TO FOCUS ON THE "NOW" WHICH IS A QUALIFIED TEACHER WHO TEACHES YOU THE THE 24 FORM. DON'T LET YOUR MIND/YI WONDER INTO THE "FUTURE", WHICH IS WHAT YOU MIGHT MISSING IN THE LONG FORM. TAIJIQUAN PRACTICES IS TO CALM THE MIND FROM THE BEGINNING AS WELL AT THE END. THE FORM IS THE TOOLS ONE USE TO TRAINING THE PHYSICAL BODY TO "TRUST" THE MIND AND DON'T ASK TOO MANY THINGS YET TO COME. LIKE ASKING THE PHYSICAL BODY WHAT IT IS DOING. HAVE YOUR TEACHER EVER ASKS YOU TO CALM THE MIND AND LISTEN BEHIND A FEW MOMENT BEFORE YOU RAISE YOUR HAND IN FORM TRAINING ? TO CALM THE MIND IS A BEGINNING OF INTERNAL JOURNEY TO LISTEN FROM WITHIN. AND TRUST THE HAND WILL DO THE RIGHT THING. HOW DOES ONE KNOW THAT? LISTEN IS TO FEEL IN TAIJIQUAN PRACTICES. DON'T OVERLY WORRY IF IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG. THERE WON'T BE ANY MISTAKE IN TAIJIQUAN IF ONE CAN DO THE NEXT THING RIGHT. JUST TO FEEL WHAT IT IS LIKE WHILE YOUR HAND IS GOING UP (THE MOMENT OF NOW) SLOWLY. DOES IT FEEL STIFF? HOW STIFF? CAN YOU LET GO THE STIFFNESS FROM WITHIN (YIN) AND MAINTAINING THE FORM MECHANICAL STRUCTURES (THE YANG) AS YOU ARE MOVING (FANG SONG/RELAX WITH SOMETHING IN IT) ? DON'T WORRY ABOUT HOW IT LOOK AFTERWARD THAT IS THE "PAST". DON'T PONDER ON THE BEST YET TO COME TOMORROW, THAT IS THE FUTURE. PRACTICES TAIJIQUAN IS TO FOCUS THE MOMENT OF NOW. " NOW", IS A MOMENT CHANGING AND PASSING INTO THE "PAST" AND THE "FUTURE" WILL CHANGING AND ENTERING TO BECOME A 'NEW' MOMENT OF NOW. WHEN AND IF YOUR MIND IS CALM TO GRASP THIS SEEMINGLY TO BE EASY TO UNDERSTAND AND TO ACCEPT IT WITHOUT THE FREEDOM OF ONE'S CHOICE AS WE LIVE ON. ONLY IN THE "NOW"YOU ALLOW TO BE EXIST,THE REAL YOU. THEN TAIJI WILL BE EASIER FOR YOU. TAIJI IS ALL ABUT THE YIN/YANG CHANGING. A MOTION IN CEASELESS CHANGING. IF THIS MOTION STOP, THEN IT IS IN A STATE OF "WUJI", THE VOID. THE MOTHER OF TAIJI. WHAT HAPPEN WHEN THE TAIJI ENDED? IT GOES BACK TO "WUJI" UNTIL IT WANTS TO MOVE AGAIN. THUS BIRTH OF TAIJI.
FOR YOUR BENIFIT...THE FORM IS THE PHYSICAL BODY WHICH IS THE YIN. THE MIND/YI IS THE KNOWING/KNOWLEDGE ,THE YANG. THE KNOWLEDGE TO KNOW WHAT IT FEEL LIKE IS INTERNAL,THE YIN. AND HOW THE PHYSICAL BODY EXPRESSING IT, IS EXTERNAL, THE YANG. SO IF JUST DO THE FORM,WHICH IS YIN AND WITHOUT THE YI/MIND WHICH IS YANG, WHERE IS YOUR YIN/YANG CHANGING AS YOU MOVE? THUS NO TAIJI. IT IS AN GOOD EXERCISE. BUT IT IS NOT A TAIJIQUAN.
This discussion has made me wonder what I will be missing if I do not go on to the long form.
WHEN AND IF YOU CAN NAILED DOWN YOUR FORM -THE YIN AND MIND/YI-THE YANG TOGETHER IN YOUR 24 FORM. WHAT YOU BE MISSING IN THE LONG FORM IS FEW EXTRA HARD-TO-BALANCE POSTURES TO OVER COME AND DOUBLE THE LENGTH OF TIME DOING THE TAIJIQUAN FORM . YOU CAN DO THE 24FORM 3 TIMES JUST FOR GOOD MEASURE. I LEARNED THE TRADITIONAL FORM AND PRACTICES THE LONG FORM FOR THE SAKE OF TAIJI JOY. WE PRACTICE THE LONG FORM AT LEAST 3 TIMES SLOWLY IN ONE SETTING DAILY. PLUS OTHER LITTLE THINGS THAT WE DO.I FOUND THAT THE TIME TO DO THE LONG FORM WITH THE LOVE OF IT, IT IS KIND OF SHORT. THE 'LONG FORM" IS NOT A MEASURE THE LENGTH OF TIME IT NEED TO FINISH THE FORM. BUT A STANDARD TAIJI PRINCIPLE FOR THE YIN/YANG CHANGING WITHOUT ANY BREAK DURING A CEASELESS MOTION WHILE TRANSMITTING FROM ONE POSTURE INTO ANOTHER.LIKE WATER FLOWING IN THE YANGTZE (LONG) RIVER .IF THAT WOULD HAPPEN BY THE TIME I REACH IN THE 4TH SET . I HAVE THIS SENSATION THAT I LOST MY 'SELF" OR EGO AS THE YI IS THE CONDUCTOR LEADING ALL THE FINE TUNING OF FANG SONG,THE SENSATIONS OF MELTING WITH EXPENDING, EQUAL DENSITY INTERNALLY AND EXTERNALLY, THE 8 GATES IN MOTION WITH YI, ECT..ALL THESE SENSATIONS SEEM TO BE ABLE TO ROLL INTO ONE IN THAT ONE MOMENT WITH THE FORM IS HARD TO DESCRIBED OF YIN YANG IN "ONENESS". THROUGH THIS I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY SOME TIME SOME OF TEACHER WON'T EVEN BOTHER TO EXPLAIN IT .BECAUSE I WAS NOT READY? I HEARD ABOUT THESE THING A LOT, BUT....YOU CAN NOT LOOK FOR IT ! IT WILL BE THERE WHEN YOUR YIN/YANG IS READY.( TOO BAD IT IS NOT LAST LONG AS A LONG FORM SHOULD BE FOR ME.I CAN'T DIVORCED MY EGO JUST YET. I WILL MAKE MORE TIME ).
THE LONG FORM IS RESERVED FOR THOSE WHO MADE THE TIME FOR IT , NOT JUST HAVE THE TIME.
My instructor is emphasizing the form as a tool for self-defense rather than just aesthetics.
IF YOU KEEP ON PRACTICES THE FORM WITH YOUR RIGHT TEACHER AND THE WHOLE TAIJI PRINCIPLES AND LEARN THE TRUE SKILL OF FANG SONG (RELAX WITH SOMETHING IN IT). YOU CAN HAVE BOTH...SEND PEOPLE FLYING WITH AESTHETICS. IN THE MEAN TIME PRACTICES TO CALM YOUR MIND AND DON'T ASK SILLY QUESTION LIKE HOW LONG IT TAKE. BUT, JUST TO BE MEAN, I WILL TELL YOU...HOW LONG ARE YOU PLANING TO LIVE? WITH GOOD TAIJI, YOU ARE ASKING FOR IT!
Any input will certainly be appreciated!
IS THIS HELP?
CIAO,
YSLIM
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Thu Feb 25, 2010 11:29 pm
by Audi
Hi Matt and Richard,
Matt,
From what I have heard, the Yang Family had no say into the creation of this form and had much disapproval.
According to my observation, Yang Zhenduo and Yang Jun stress that Taijiquan is one family at every occasion, and I have never heard of them characterizing anyone else’s Taijiquan as bad or inferior. However, I would find it understandable if they did not approve of someone outside the family creating a new Tai Chi variation to represent their family without even consulting them. There is a difference between judging whether something is good or bad Taijiquan and judging whether it is a good representation of your own specific flavor of Taijiquan.
It was a different approach to Taijiquan instruction that made learning Taijiquan much easier in my case. I had started with CMC taijiquan and each teacher taught more about how I was not doing Taijiquan than that I was doing it correctly. I guess its a positive vs negative reinforcement that I experienced.
I would agree with you strongly about the value of positive reinforcement and the value of teaching not only what you shouldn’t do, but what you should do. I don’t think, however, this is primarily an issue of style or lineage.
Friends,
I am new to Yang style and am currently learning the Yang 24 form from a qualified instructor.
This discussion has made me wonder what I will be missing if I do not go on to the long form.
My instructor is emphasizing the form as a tool for self-defense rather than just aesthetics.
Any input will certainly be appreciated!
Richard,
I am a member of the Yang Family Association. I have been exposed to some other variations of Yang Style; however, I really, really like the Association’s form. Having said that, I can see why many people might be attracted to the flavor of the 24 form. Practicing either form can bring you great benefits.
According to my understanding, the 24 form was not created for aesthetics but for the promotion of health. Since it was created with Tai Chi principles, it absolutely embodies martial aspects. However, it was also created at a time when the Chinese government was leery of the traditional martial arts and so the martial aspects are hidden even more deeply than in some other styles.
In my view, if you are truly interested in the martial aspects, the question is not so much whether to do a long or short form, but what will be the overall curriculum you will study. Most Tai Chi schools view the form as at most half of the practice, since it teaches you about yourself. They view push hands as the other half, since it teaches you about your opponent. In the Association’s approach, the barehand form, the weapons forms, push hand circling, push hands applications, fajin training, etc. all support each other and share technical principles. In our system, it would not make sense to substitute the 24 form for our traditional form; however, that does not prevent someone else from creating a different system with different components that would include the 24 form.
Take care,
Audi
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Fri Feb 26, 2010 9:22 pm
by YellowStar
Yoooohhhh!! The old is new and the new is old. I found the 24 form comes in handy.
I call it the other "quickie". Kind of playing the first nine, like the course is different
but the game remains the same? My drive form was comical learning golf and I used
to slice the ball often. It was then I learned what 7, 8 and 9 irons and wedges were for.
Qigong came first for me (such as it is) before moving on to proper Yang taiji. I'm new
here. I started external when in Vietnam in 1967 w/ROK near An Thoi and it wasn't
taekwondo, it was much more practical and very brutal. Osss!
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 1:04 am
by Richard Tolson
Auddi,
Thank you for the clear explanation!
Richard
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 10:21 am
by Marc Heyvaert
The 24-form is not the only form to be influenced by the Li family. Don't forget the 88-form, that is in fact the long form, more or less unaltered. Except that it has the same 'flavour' as the more popular 24-form. This 88-form was based on the 81-form that Li Yulin (according to his grandson Li Deyin) learned directly from Yang Chengfu. There ar pictures of Li Yulin performing this form and there is also a teaching video of it by Li Deyin.
As for taijijian, the 32-form which is widely practiced in de world, was also choreographed by Li Tianji.
Most of the later forms were influenced by 24, 88, 81 taijiquan and 32 taijijian; So the influence of the Li's on modern taijiquan has indeed been great.
I practice these new forms. There are both good and bad teacher is traditional and modern styles. The principles are the same. Someone who aplies te priciples, is gifted and practices very hard will be a good taijiquan player.
Marc
Re: Observation- 24 form vs. CMC form vs. Yang form
Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2010 8:50 pm
by BertVa
My first Teacher did not teach any type of steping drills and he still does not. My current coach we do lots of walking forward and backwards, not a lot of sideways. Lots of joint opening before doing the long form.
When I was in Xiamen this summer. My sister in law step me up with 3 chen lessons at the Xiamen sports complex. I was started with forward, backward and sideways walking.
I still practice it almost everyday both styles of walking.