online resources

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 4:54 pm

Someone at emptyflower pointed out these very good online resources with pics and whole books!

http://www.wretch.cc/album/TOB2

http://www.wretch.cc/album/f86888&page=1

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 5:21 pm

Greetings Jerry,

Wow! One of them is Wu Jianquan's famous manuscript of the Yang Forty Chapters! It's the one titled, Taiji Fashuo. That's the very ms. that is reproduced in the Gold Book. That's a real treasure. I see Tang Hao's & Gu Liuxin's Taijiquan yanjiu is there too.

**On closer examination, the Taiji Fashuo is not complete. There are only a few sample pages. I wonder why? It's not a very long manuscript.

--Louis

[This message has been edited by Louis Swaim (edited 09-21-2005).]

JerryKarin · Post by **JerryKarin** » Wed Sep 21, 2005 9:52 pm

Unfortunately a lot of the stuff is published a bit too small to read comfortably. Still, there is quite a bit of good info there and in most cases with a little work you can read it.

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:17 am

Yes, great collection!

Wu/Hao's manuals (Li Yiyu's handwritten manuscript) are there too. My attention particularly was caught by DA SHOU GE.
http://www.wretch.cc/album/show.php?i=f ... 18002&p=11
There are some additional characters (peng character at the end and below - shangping?). Unfortunately they are hard to read. I couldn't recognize everything.

Thanks for the links!

** I've changed the link and hope this time it wont advertise something tasty

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-22-2005).]

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 8:08 am

I have found this 'additional' part in the net. I believe, originally Wu Yuxiang transmitted this text to his followers. It complements Da Shou ge (Song of pushing/hitting hands). It looks quite unusual to me since primarily talks about sounds (during pushing/hitting hands).

´òÊÖÈö·Å

’òÉÏÆ½ ˜IÈëÂ• àæÉÏÂ• ¿ÈÈëÂ• ºôÉÏÂ• ¿Ô ºÇ ¹þ

Take care,

Yuri

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 4:47 pm

Hi Yuri,

Your link seems to have captured an advertisement for something to eat. I think I would use "tun" on that one!

--Louis

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Thu Sep 22, 2005 5:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
Hi Yuri,

Your link seems to have captured an advertisement for something to eat. I think I would use "tun" on that one!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Especially if it is a good tasty portion of well prepared peng jin

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:03 am

Greetings Yuri,

You wrote: "I have found this 'additional' part in the net. I believe, originally Wu Yuxiang transmitted this text to his followers. It complements Da Shou ge (Song of pushing/hitting hands). It looks quite unusual to me since primarily talks about sounds (during pushing/hitting hands)."

That is a strange document. There is a commentary in Shen Shou’s 1991 compendium, _Taijiquan pu_ (pp. 54-55). I will attempt here a rough translation of the Wu Yuxiang text and Shen Shou’s commentary. As you say, the text consists of words that are primarily sounds, rather than meaningful terms (with the exception of peng). The tone designations are classical tones, which are not the same as the tones in modern Mandarin. The last three terms have no tone designations. Here’s my attempt:

~~~
The let-out and release of hitting hands

Peng: rising level tone
Ye: entering tone
Yi: rising tone
Hai: entering tone
Hu: rising tone
Hang
He
Ha
—Wu Yuxiang

If this document were put in terms equivalent to more modern language, it would perhaps be called “The eight qi methods of issuing in push hands.” The eight “sound words” in the text are used in association with the issuance of jin in push hands, so that when one issues jin, one employs the release of a sound as a way of giving vent to tension (tu3qi4), in order to increase its explosive force, and to raise the actual level of the fajin’s result. Just as Yang Chengfu left a transmission, “The three qi methods of releasing jin in push hands” (tuishou fangjin san qi fa), these are in accordance with three different directions of fajin: upper, middle, and lower, and selectively applying one of the “sound words” Heng, Hai, or Ha, in order to accompany the release of tension in the fajin (yi peihe fajin tuqi). The above mentioned “three qi methods” are no doubt strongly related to “the eight qi methods” [of this text]. The three qi [sounds] Heng, Hai, Ha, if compared with this document, in fact [correspond to] Hang, He, and Ha [that is, the final three sounds].
—Shen Shou
~~~

Take care,
Louis

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 10:49 am

Greetings Louis,

Thank you for the translation! It explained me some terms that I didn't know and now I can better analyze the text.

Unfortunately I didn't meet the notions of these types of tones before, however I think, knowing their characteristics are crucial to the understanding of their meanings in this text. What are they in comparison to the four putonghua tones?

I'll search the info and report you my ideas after that.

Take care,

Yuri

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:37 pm

Well, Shen Shou's commentary is really good (thanks again for the translation). He gives explanation to main components of the text. Since the word "releasing" stands even in the title, the text definitely relates to fajin methods.

According to Shen Shou the last three sounds relate to three kinds of directions chosen to fajin. So we have 5 sounds with open-ended purposes.

Unfortunately I can only suspect about their meanings. Here are my thoughts:
The first sound is pronounced in a natural way while moving penjin forward and upward. The following four sounds, as I think, are used rather in training process and relate to storing and releasing. The last three are closer to real applications, to issuing.

Take care,

Yuri

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-23-2005).]

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 5:10 pm

Hi Yuri,

I’m not sure what to make of this, but I’m inclined to say that any attempt to reconstruct these sounds would probably not be that useful. My thought is that this little document represents something in the way of research notes from Wu Yuxiang, and as such served to capture his personal observations of rather subjective experiences he had during paired practice sessions. By and large, early taiji classic writings are what I would call “experiential” texts that record subjective experiences to one degree or another. This example is at one extreme of subjective experience.

In my opinion, the sounds that one may or may not make in these gasps, sighs, or exclamations while issuing energy during push hands would be extremely variable from one practitioner to another. On the other hand, the value that I see in examining a document like this is that one can gain inspiration from the shear intensity of attention Wu Yuxiang devoted to his practice of the art. It reminds me very much of the kind of observations early astronomers or botanists recorded of fine grain variations in phenomena most people ignored or took for granted. So the lesson for me is: pay attention!

Frankly, though, I’m kind of grasping at straws here. I welcome any thoughts anyone has on what the value of this document may be to modern practitioners.

--Louis

Bob Ashmore · Post by **Bob Ashmore** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:08 pm

I have no real insights into this area, beyond having read in numerous places about the Heng and Ha sounds.
I don't have the books in my hands for specific reference, in fact all of my books but Yang Zhen Duo's and Louis' translation of Fu Zhongwen's book, are in storage as I fix up my house, but if memory serves Dr. Yang Jwing Ming says some things about using two of these sounds in his writings.
If memory serves, and that's doubtfull, he references the Heng and Ha sounds. These seem close to the He and Ha sounds referenced in these texts.
Have the Grand Master or Master Yang Jun made any statements or have a policy regarding these sound issuances during practice? Did Yang Cheng Fu, in the reference material mentioned by Louis, make any conclusions as the validity of employing these sounds?
I've read, in quite a few places, that it was the sound of people issuing He and Ha, or Heng and Ha, sounds that attracted Yang Lu Chan to evesdrop on the Chen family practices. Now, these accounts are, as always, suspect, I only mention them due to the sheer proponderance of these stories.
So...
I guess I'm asking is, do the current lineage holders of the Yang family view these sounds as worthwhile practice methods for the issuance of fa jin?

Bob

Louis Swaim · Post by **Louis Swaim** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:41 pm

Greetings Bob,

Heng and Ha are also the names of two deities or door gods represented in various temples across China. I've seen them variously identified as Daoist and Buddhist, or as military "marshals" who were so named because of the powerful sounds that they uttered. I think this may give some hint that the heng ha sounds were not peculiar to taiji, but were probably appropriated from mythology and/or other martial arts.

Take care,
Louis

Yuri Snisarenko · Post by **Yuri Snisarenko** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 6:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Louis Swaim:
 the value that I see in examining a document like this is that one can gain inspiration from the shear intensity of attention Wu Yuxiang devoted to his practice of the art. It reminds me very much of the kind of observations early astronomers or botanists recorded of fine grain variations in phenomena most people ignored or took for granted. So the lesson for me is: pay attention!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Louis,

This is very close to what my teacher used to tell us. You reminded me of him.

Take care,
Yuri

[This message has been edited by Yuri Snisarenko (edited 09-23-2005).]

Bob Ashmore · Post by **Bob Ashmore** » Fri Sep 23, 2005 7:22 pm

Louis,
There is nothing new under the sun.
The very concept of "tai chi chuan" came from other ideas, which came from other ideas...
But I like your "pay attention" advice. Very sound and most likely closer to the mark than most.

Bob